# Brown effect: trekkie dream or bad science ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 8, 2002, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835 "2002-11-08T04:06:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quitesane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/8dc957/32.png) [@Quitesane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quitesane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/1 "2002-11-08T04:06:08Z")
I stumbled over this [link](http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/lftbld.htm) describing what seems to be working antigravity. From what i’ve been able to find on google, this “Brown Effect” is pretty much unexplained by our current theories. To me (if it is indeed real) it looks like propulsion without a propellant, a thing which i, being a loyal follower of Sir Isaac, have always thought impossible. Any physics guys out there who would like to, once and for all, shatter my dreams of a star-trek impulse drive? Thank you 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Cap\_n\_Crude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Cap\_n\_Crude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cap_n_Crude)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/2 "2002-11-08T04:59:04Z")
From the casual observation of a reasonably bright fellow whose formal scientific education stopped in high school (me), it looks more like static electricity, or some other simple electromagnetic effect. Even if I’m wrong about that, it seems that this Biefield-Brown effect requires an awful lot of juice to move a fairly small mass. The effect has been known for 50 years – if it were significant and applicable to the real world, the topic would be covered by somebody other than the “fringe” sources my Web search revealed. Don’t get me wrong: I get a kick out of weird science and would love to see something strange and new develop. I just don’t think this is it. I think my sig is oddly appropriate for this topic … ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/3 "2002-11-08T05:07:04Z")
What? He wants to pass 40kV through those wires? Is he nuts? ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/4 "2002-11-08T06:07:21Z")
Yeah, but only 500 microamps… no big deal. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/5 "2002-11-08T14:29:30Z")
The ‘lifters’ have been discussed here several times before. They appear to be a case of propulsion by generating an ion wind effect in the surrounding air. ---
**Author:** ![Quitesane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/8dc957/32.png) [@Quitesane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quitesane)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/6 "2002-11-08T18:01:21Z")
I’m not entirely convinced 🙂 According to [this](http://www.forceborne.com/AirPowerElectric%20-JDW-.htm) the effect is not a result of ion winds. Of course the article could be junk (i wouldn’t be able to tell the difference) > [@](#): > > Brown also fell victim to the claim that the ‘Bifeld Brown effect’ was attributable to ion wind — a claim he sought to refute by demonstrating the ability of his capacitors to levitate in a vacuum. According to Ventura, lifters have also performed successfully under vacuum conditions. Could the “lifter” be pushing off earths magnetic field? Oh, and by the way, i tried a forum search but didn’t find anything on the subject. **AndrewL** , any chance you could point me to one of the threads you mentioned ? Thanks 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/7 "2002-11-08T18:40:17Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=138061](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=138061) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=116172](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=116172) I’ve heard it claimed that they work in vacume, but I’ve yet to see any actual evidence that a lifter has flowin in a vacume chamber. Wrapping a lifter in plastic or a bag isn’t the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![bbeaty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c0e974/32.png) [@bbeaty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbeaty)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/8 "2002-11-08T22:28:53Z")
The “Lifters” put out a HUGE amount of ion wind. The claim made on J. Naudin’s website (and others) is that some percentage of the thrust is caused by something other than ion wind. Yet hobbyists seem to never get around to measuring this percentage. Lifters have been known for many decades. It’s only within the last year that anyone started claiming that they were antigravity devices. Here’s an article from Popular Mechanics, 1964 de Seversky’s “Ionocraft” [http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1805/ion.html](http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hall/1805/ion.html) ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/9 "2002-11-09T05:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hammerbach \* > Yeah, but only 500 microamps… no big deal. I haven’t got around to testing it, but it seems that the wires will be burnt out when such a high voltage is passed through them. Just a hunch. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/10 "2002-11-09T05:56:30Z")
Just as I thought. This J. Naudin is the same person who was backing the [“Motionless Electromagnetic Generator”](http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/meg.htm), another perpetual motion machine scam. While this does not rule out the possiblity of this “lifter” actually works, this puts a huge dent into Mr Naudin’s credibility. As to ion wind, where do you get the ions from? ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/11 "2002-11-09T06:14:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Urban Ranger \* > \*\* > > I haven’t got around to testing it, but it seems that the wires will be burnt out when such a high voltage is passed through them. Just a hunch. \*\* Voltage isn’t what is passing through the wire. Current is what passes through the wire. If you are reading this on a conventional picture tube monitor, you have that sort of current at that sort of voltage flowing through wires that size less than 3 feet from your face. You frequently build up static electricity in the kilovolt range just walking around. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/12 "2002-11-09T06:49:03Z")
If you want to nitpick about it, current doesn’t move through the wire, electrons do. Static might be in the kilovolt range, but static discharge only lasts for a small fraction of a second instead of being continuous. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/13 "2002-11-09T06:51:03Z")
I have never taken apart a flyback transformer, but most transformers have wires a bit thicker if they are to deal with high voltages. What’s that he used? 40 gauage wire? ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/14 "2002-11-09T07:01:11Z")
No, the wires are thicker for high current, and thinner for high voltage. If you look at a stepdown xfmr’s windings, you will see heavier windings on the low voltage (higher current) side. If you are curious about those relationships, I will try to find a good educational link for you. ---
**Author:** ![privard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@privard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/privard)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/15 "2002-11-09T12:50:25Z")
Urban Ranger–listen to hammerbach; he knows. I HAVE taken apart flyback transformers and built tesla coils, and they DO use 40 guage and thinner wires for the high voltage coils. A wire doesn’t care much about the voltage running through it, only the current. ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/16 "2002-11-09T14:43:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hammerbach \* > \*\*If you are curious about those relationships, I will try to find a good educational link for you. \*\* And here’s a good one to start with: [http://www.howstuffworks.com/question501.htm](http://www.howstuffworks.com/question501.htm) Cheers! ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/17 "2002-11-09T15:10:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by privard \* > \*\*Urban Ranger–listen to hammerbach; he knows. I HAVE taken apart flyback transformers and built tesla coils, and they DO use 40 guage and thinner wires for the high voltage coils. A wire doesn’t care much about the voltage running through it, only the current. \*\* Okay, everyone uses water flowing through a hose to represent electricity flow, but I just thought of a better analogy that makes clear what **hammerbach** and others are saying. Voltage doesn’t flow, voltage is _potential_. Think of a marble rolling down an incline. Voltage is how _steep_ the incline is. Current is how many marbles are rolling (per unit time). How thick the incline is (i.e. a book or a board, or simply a thin sheet of paper) is equivalent to the wire size. Since voltage is how steep the incline is, you can clearly see that you can make a thin strip of paper as _steep_ as a board. What you can’t do is support as many marbles on the paper as you can on the board. I think that’s more clear isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![hammerbach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hammerbach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hammerbach)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/18 "2002-11-09T21:36:47Z")
Not bad… ---
**Author:** ![bbeaty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c0e974/32.png) [@bbeaty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bbeaty)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2002, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-effect-trekkie-dream-or-bad-science/135835/19 "2002-11-10T03:23:56Z")
Quite a few hobbyists have built “lifters” by using the (lethally dangerous!) high voltage available in old PC monitors. A balsa framework gets the weight down enough that the thing can fly. Can’t lift it’s own power supply of course. A “lifter” is a variety of electrostatic fan (remember “ionic breeze” fan from Sharper Image, [http://www.sharperimage.com/us/en/catalog/productview.jhtml?pid=37143300](http://www.sharperimage.com/us/en/catalog/productview.jhtml?pid=37143300) Air is the only moving part. This is a classic classroom demo for physics teachers. Place a sharp electrode near a large smooth electrode, apply a few thousand volts between them, and air starts moving from the sharp electrode to the smooth one. The voltage field near the sharp electrode is strong enough to tear up air molecules (create ions,) while the field near the smooth electrode is too weak. The voltage field then drags ions and neighboring air from the sharp electrode to the smooth one. In the Lifter device, the thin wire serves as the “sharp” electrode which generates the ions, while the strip of aluminum foil serves as the “smooth” electrode which collects the ions.