# Brown, Green, Black, White as surnames **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 19, 2008, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435 "2008-11-19T11:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435/61 "2008-11-19T23:54:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yes, it’s worth remembering how much they changed by migration within Europe - Russian names would be Germanised or Anglicised, Jewish ones would be disguised or emphasised, and so on. For some cases, no doubt. From what I’ve read, however, it’s much more likely that the change was made in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435/62 "2008-11-20T00:15:49Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > For some cases, no doubt. From what I’ve read, however, it’s much more likely that the change was made in the U.S. ‘The’ change might, in itself, be ruling out other previous changes! Bear in mind how many family historians have simply wanted to find the direct connection with Europe. Exploring back beyond that is a whole different matter. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435/63 "2008-11-20T01:32:24Z")
> [@Dublin11](#): > > I would imagine that in times gone by a awful lot of the people who arrived in America through Ellis Island were were functionally illiterate and could not spell their own name anyway. > As one example, take the surname Riley in America. It’s not the spelling you see in Ireland. So where did it come from? > People who live in Ireland today whose name sounds like that spell it differently - O’Reilly, Reilly or _Ó Raghallaigh_. > > I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to imagine that names being recorded by an official at Ellis Island who spoke a different language to the immigrants he was processing would write down the name as he thought it was spelt, based on how it sounded to him. If the immigrant is illiterate, he won’t know it’s spelt differently. And even if he’s not, if he was so depserate to get into the new country and escape persecution and avoid a return sea voyage back to the old country, arguing with the first line of American officialdom he meets might not be all that prudent. > And once the immigrant has a piece of American identification, then that’s his name, surely? There are 14 Rileys in the 01 (Dublin) phonebook for what it’s worth. Also, many Irish surnames have a variety of spellings and derivatives. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435/64 "2008-11-20T01:47:43Z")
> [@furryman](#): > > I don’t have a cite, but I read somewhere that during the 1800’s Jews living in Germany were legally required to change there name to some common object. Thus the many Golds and Steins (stone) I thought there were lots of Jews with precious-metal/stone names because the jewellery trade was dominated by Jews in much of Europe. Hell, even today, half the (non-chain) jewellers in London are Jewish-owned. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435/65 "2008-11-20T14:16:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > **Exapno** , “Anders” isn’t a phonetic corruption of “Andrew”; it’s the Dutch form of the name. The part that surprises me is that a Dutch-based patronymic became so common in the US, despite the fact that Dutch influence in the US has dwindled to the point that the original first name is so rare now. “Anders” is not a corruption of “Andrew” … they are cognates. However, I think it is very much reasonable to posit that there was once a spoken form “Andrewson” that had it’s unstressed middle syllable reduced from “-dru:-” to “-d@r-” (where @ = schwa). That would be consistent with with English phonetic development over the centuries. A similar case would be a hypothetical spoken form “Geoffreyson” leading to “Jefferson”, where the unstressed penultimate syllable “-fri:-” reduced to “-f@r-”. See also “Guinevere” \>\> “Jennifer”. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2008, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435/66 "2008-11-20T16:55:17Z")
According to **Exapno Mapcase** ’s cite above, Ander or Anders was “a northern Middle English form of Andrew.” That would mean it was used in northern England or northern Great Britain between about 1000 and 1500. If that’s the correct origin of the name Anderson, there’s no reason to think that it would be any more common in the U.S. than in Britain. Is it? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435/67 "2008-11-21T07:31:26Z")
> [@seodoa](#): > > Kind of like how blacksmiths became “Mr. Smith” and barrel-makers became “Mr. Cooper.” Actually, a lot of those color names are from occupations – specifically, smithing. Blacksmith becomes Mr. Black. Whitesmith (tin smith) becomes Mr. White. Silversmith becomes Mr. Silver. Goldsmith becomes Mr. Gold. That’s in a larger town, because the town has several of them, and calling them all Mr. Smith would be confusing. All smaller villages would probably only have one of them, a blacksmith, so he would be called Mr. Smith. Thus we have more Smiths than Blacks or Whites. P.S. Actually, at the time back when people were getting surnames, none of these ‘tradesmen’ would be called _Mister_. That was an honorific reserved for higher class people. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435/68 "2008-11-21T13:33:26Z")
Anders is still a common Scandinavian name. As I said earlier, my great-grandfather’s name changed upon arrival. The ship’s passenger list name is _not_ the same as the one he got on arrival. “No names changed at Ellis Island” is complete and total bunk. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brown-green-black-white-as-surnames/473435.md?page=3)