# Brownie points **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2002, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783 "2002-12-10T16:50:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jlegg\_infowest.com](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jlegg\_infowest.com](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlegg_infowest.com)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/1 "2002-12-10T16:50:56Z")
What is the origin of the term “brownie points” Thank you, JL:confused: ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/2 "2002-12-10T17:00:34Z")
My understanding is that it came from the Brownies, the Girl Scouts version of Cub Scouts. When you did good deeds you earned “Brownie points”. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/3 "2002-12-10T17:02:06Z")
From [www.wordorigins.com](http://www.wordorigins.com): > [@](#): > > This term derives from the girl scouts. That organization had (has?) a system of points that the girls would accumulate toward advancement. > > The phrase entered the general language from WWII in military slang. Uniforms, the army’s tendency to have soldiers do things that seemed silly and child-like, and evocation of brown-nose all contributed to the popularity of the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/4 "2002-12-10T17:27:23Z")
I don’t buy it. A brownie is a mythical fairie or sprite that was believed to do some helpful chores while the mortals slept. Thus, if you perform unsolicited work for somebody, you are said to be vying for brownie points, or simply behaving in the manner of a brownie. What the exact value of an individual brownie point is, I don’t know. Maybe they can be traded in, like Green Stamps. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/5 "2002-12-10T17:33:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > **I don’t buy it.** Why not? Are you suggesting that the mythical faeries had a points sytem for good deeds ('cause I don’t buy that)? Or don’t you accept that the little girl scouts (who took their name from the mythical faeries BTW) _do_ have a points system? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/6 "2002-12-10T17:37:37Z")
Right. The Brownies took the name from the little sprites who went about doing good deeds. And they have points. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/7 "2002-12-10T17:38:13Z")
I was a Brownie and a Junior Girl Scout, as well as a troop leader for my daughter when she was a Girl Scout, and I don’t remember any “point system” for good deeds. I always understood that the phrase originated with “brown nosing”, “brownie points” being what you got after you had “brown nosed” enough. Apparently WordOrigins felt they had to tidy it up. ---
**Author:** ![StephenG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@StephenG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StephenG)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/8 "2002-12-10T18:12:38Z")
As a WAG, doesn’t Betty Crocker offer various “points” on the boxes of her (their) products? IIRC, you can cut off these points and mail them in for various things. Since Betty Crocker makes brownies… ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/9 "2002-12-10T18:27:50Z")
Unlike **DDG** , I have never been in the Brownies (or any similar paramilitary organisation), and I have no knowledge of this Betty Crocker of whom you speak. My WAG is that you wouldn’t earn points for brown-nosing, just get an increasingly brown nose. However, according to [this site](http://guidinguk.freeservers.com/zones_etc.html) the Eight Points of the Brownie programme are : [ul][li]Character - Brownies do their best [/li][li]Service - Brownies lend a hand [/li][li]Creativity - Brownies make things [/li][li]Relationships - Brownies are friendly [/li][li]Out-of-doors - Brownies have fun out-of-doors [/li][li]Homecraft - Brownies help at home [/li][li]Mind - Brownies are wide awake [/li][li]Physical fitness - Brownies keep healthy[/li][/ul]Nothing for being a smart alec though, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/10 "2002-12-10T20:29:53Z")
Can I suggest a synthesis of several of these theories: “Brownie points” originated in the U.S. military circa World War II, as a double entendre on the the Girl Scouts’ Brownies (who in turn named them after the fairy brownies), and the slang term “brown-nosing”. These being men, they did not know that, strictly speaking, the Brownies do not use a point system for their awards. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/11 "2002-12-10T20:35:35Z")
Yeah, that could fly, **Walloon**. Give yourself a bro… er, a pat on the back. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/12 "2002-12-10T21:06:47Z")
How about going to the source, the OED: > [@](#): > > 1. Special Comb.: Brownie point colloq. (orig. U.S.) [prob. a development from brown-nose s.v. BROWN a. 7, but popularly associated with sense 2 above and hence freq. spelled with capital initial], a notional credit for an achievement; favour in the eyes of another, esp. gained by sycophantic or servile behaviour. > > 1963 Amer. Speech XXXVIII. 169 To curry favor with a professor: brown nose…brownie…get \*brownie points. 1971 M. TAK Truck Talk 19 Brownie points, theoretical points gained by a trucker who goes out of his way to do a favor for a dispatcher. 1976 N. THORNBURG Cutter & Bone vii. 169, I said it was his big chance to make Brownie points with the old man. 1980 Daily Tel. 6 Sept. 19/3 Overall, the societies are considered more friendly than the banks though the banks get brownie points for speed in dealing with transactions. 1986 Times Educ. Suppl. 9 May 6/3 The clause would not be used to ‘punish’ teachers. Those who took part in extra activities would get a Brownie point, he said, but classroom effectiveness would be the prime test of a teacher’s success. The dates refute the “WWII Military Slang” explanation. The “sense 2 above” refers to the Girl Scout Brownies, however, the OED gives the origin as: > [@](#): > > 1. [Named from the colour of their uniform.] A member of the junior section of the organization known as the ‘Girl Guides’. Also attrib. Sounds like “brown-nosing points” is where it comes from. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/13 "2002-12-10T21:15:26Z")
The OED is wrong on the Brownies being named for the color of their uniform (gasp!). For one thing, the original color of the Brownie uniform was blue. Also, the Brownies themselves make the elf/sprite connection, as seen in the slightly creepy Brownie chant: “I twist me and turn me and show me the elf. I looked in the mirror and saw MYSELF!” Source: mom. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/14 "2002-12-10T21:39:04Z")
No, that’s not fair on the OED. They’ve always worn brown uniforms over here – the older girls wore blue (and still do). The key part of **RealityChuck’s** quote is _“3. Special Comb.: Brownie point colloq. (orig. U.S.)”_, which suggests that the term began on your side of the water with the disgusting American expression regarding the unsavourvy proximity of a person’s nose to somewhere it doesn’t belong. The capital letter B connects it to the junior girls scouts where applicable. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/15 "2002-12-10T21:47:05Z")
Fair enough. I noticed afterward that it said “Girl Guides” and not “Girl Scouts”, which would refer to the British organization rather than the American. One web site I found (I’ll post a link if anyone is seriously interested) said the depression-era Brownie uniforms had pointed hats with elves on them, and the Brownies got bells for the hat for completing tests and doing chores. They were the original elf-help organiztion. ---
**Author:** ![\_etalhea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/779978/32.png) [@\_etalhea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_etalhea)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/16 "2002-12-10T21:58:50Z")
I got thrown out of the Girl Scouts for eating Brownies. I have nothing constructive to add, I was just busting to tell that old joke. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2002, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/17 "2002-12-10T23:34:46Z")
pravnik, could i trouble you for the link? i remember in elementary school sitting next to a girl who had a metal pin in her brownie hat which had some weird peter gunnesque design on it which was discovered to be a brownie. i thought that i was hallucinating it in my later years. no one seemed to know of what i was speaking. (hmmmm…) ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/18 "2002-12-11T00:09:34Z")
Sure, but I’m afraid there aren’t any pictures. Incidentally, mom pravnik emailed back and said they had the pointy hats with elves on them in her day too, as well as many elf-themed activities. [http://open-site.org/Recreation/Scouting/United\_States/Girl\_Scouts/Uniforms\_and\_Insignia/Brownie\_Girl\_Scouts/](http://open-site.org/Recreation/Scouting/United_States/Girl_Scouts/Uniforms_and_Insignia/Brownie_Girl_Scouts/) I’ve had trouble coding URL’s in the past, especially long ones, so that may not work. If it doesn’t, google “Brownie Scouts History Uniform” and click the first hit. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/19 "2002-12-11T00:31:59Z")
i’m a-thankin ye! ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783/20 "2002-12-11T00:39:09Z")
And the trouble with the venerable OED is that it is just a bit behind the times on recent scholarship in the field of etymology. Lighter, of Random House Dic.of Am. Slang, can cite it to 1944-53. It DEFINITELY came from WWII, US. Wordorigins article was correct. By the mid-50’s he cites it in college slang. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brownie-points/141783.md?page=2)