# Bruce Bartlett on Epistemic Closure **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263 "2012-11-27T14:20:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/1 "2012-11-27T14:20:01Z")
Article here: [http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/revenge-of-the-reality-based-community/](http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/revenge-of-the-reality-based-community/) Bruce Bartlett first describes his conservative bona fides, then rips apart the modern Republican party, starting with GWB and Karl Rove. Here’s an interesting quote: > [@](#): > > For the record, no one has been more correct in his analysis and prescriptions for the economy’s problems than Paul Krugman. Another interesting one: > [@](#): > > The final line for me to cross in complete alienation from the right was my recognition that Obama is not a leftist. In fact, he’s barely a liberal—and only because the political spectrum has moved so far to the right that moderate Republicans from the past are now considered hardcore leftists by right-wing standards today. Viewed in historical context, I see Obama as actually being on the center-right. This jibes with my impression of Krugman and Obama, at least. I generally liked the article, but then again, I agree with most of it. I’m interested in other views from the various points on the political spectrum here at the Dope. Is Bartlett a RINO? Or, is his way of thinking the only way forward for the Republican party? Or, just a failed author, and this is all sour grapes? RS ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/2 "2012-11-27T15:37:25Z")
An interesting article but is there anything really new in what is saying? Undoubtedly he will continue his fall from grace with his conservative former friends for daring to question accepted party orthodoxy. I haven’t seen anything since the election to make me think the majority of Republicans understand how unappealing their hard right policies are with most voters, particularly those under 40. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/3 "2012-11-27T15:39:35Z")
He basically calls Bush a liberal and Obama a conservative. I wonder how self proclaimed liberals and conservatives on this board will respond to that characterization. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/4 "2012-11-27T15:42:53Z")
I read that yesterday, and as someone that followed much the same path I of course agreed with it. The question it raised for me was - “Do fiscal conservatives realize that _they have largely won_?”. They need to take the victory for what it is and stop pushing farther into the realm of economic wing-nuttery. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/5 "2012-11-27T15:46:54Z")
I’m not a democrat, or a republican, or even an american for that matter, and it read mostly like whining to me. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/6 "2012-11-27T16:18:31Z")
What he defines as epistemic closure is not listening to him. What turned him against Bush was the Medicare Part D. What he fails to acknowledge is in the 2000 election, the cost of prescription drugs was a big issue. Since Florida was the key state and it is what swung the election, not promising a handout to the retired people would have cost Bush the election. So once he won the election Bush had to pass Medicare part D or face losing the next election. There were two plans a democrat plan and a republican plan. The democrat plan was much more expensive and required a large tax increase. The republican one was smaller and required more deficit spending. The republican plan was passed and Bush signed it. It was very well designed and was one of the few programs that actually cost less than it was projected to. Bartlett did not like this and wrote a book about how Bush was an imposter and should not have passed Medicare part D, ignoring the fact that if Bush did not, Kerry would probably have gotten elected and passed the even larger Democrat alternative. Bartlett thinks so much of his own brilliance that he interprets the reaction to his book calling Bush an imposter as a sign of epistemic closure instead of his own lack of persuasive power. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/7 "2012-11-27T16:23:20Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > I’m not a democrat, or a republican, or even an american for that matter, and it read mostly like whining to me. It had a good amount of that too - lots of “nobody buys my books” complaining. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/8 "2012-11-27T16:53:22Z")
Yeah, that came out really really whiny. He’s still right though. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/9 "2012-11-27T17:22:04Z")
What a load of crap that article is. I could pick apart that article line by line but just a few highlights. Criticizing Medicare D? Helping seniors pay for outrageously priced prescription drugs is bad? Better off criticizing the money we spent wandering around Iraq for no clear reason after Saddam was captured. Using Keynes of the 30’s as an example of a rising theory. First of all, no mention of Marriner Eccles? He is a closer analogy in modern economic thought than Keynes is. Second, we don’t practice true Keynseian economics anymore. Other than Clinton, name one politician in the last 50 years that believed in saving money during good economic times to hold as a reserve for bad times. Obama is center-right? Look I’ll accept Obama as a centrist by default because it don’t think he has done much of anything and he’s too willing to compromise but don’t try to convince me that Obama actually leans to conservatism. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/10 "2012-11-27T18:04:00Z")
If you believe what Paul Krugman is selling, you are not a conservative. It’s as simple as that. Find another name for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/11 "2012-11-27T18:08:24Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > The question it raised for me was - “Do fiscal conservatives realize that _they have largely won_?”. I’m sure this won’t get me anywhere, but how have fiscal conservatives won? I would see a victory for fiscal conservatives to be a decrease in federal spending and a move towards a balanced budget. Neither of these is even close to what is happening. I have no clue what the hell you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/12 "2012-11-27T18:17:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you believe what Paul Krugman is selling, you are not a conservative. It’s as simple as that. Find another name for yourself. I’m curious as to where you think Krugman was wrong about the current downturn. He does seem to have been right about a lot of predictions, and not only for the US, but his predictions about the European and UK economies seem pretty spot on as well. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m sure this won’t get me anywhere, but how have fiscal conservatives won? I would see a victory for fiscal conservatives to be a decrease in federal spending and a move towards a balanced budget. Neither of these is even close to what is happening. I have no clue what the hell you are talking about. There’s a giant decrease in federal spending heading our way, if the spending cuts go through as scheduled. Since the parties seem to be arguing over whether only the highest income earners would return to Clinton-era tax levels, or no one will, it seems like the conservatives have won that argument. In any case, a move towards a balanced budget can include increased revenues as well as cuts in spending, both of which are headed this way. And, Obama apparently offered up 3x the amount of cuts per revenue raised – seems like the conservatives won there as well. No one is discussing returning to 50’s, 60’s, or 70’s-era tax rates, or even Reagan-era tax rates (which had far fewer deductions, so the effective rates are higher). Regarding Medicare Part D, yes it helped seniors pay for outrageous prices, but a conservative may have suggested that revenue be raised along with the entitlement, right? Or, allowed Medicare to negotiate with the drug providers, to make it more of a free market. The way it was set up, it was deficit spending from the start, with no opportunity for the government to negotiate lower prices. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/13 "2012-11-27T18:23:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Regarding Medicare Part D, yes it helped seniors pay for outrageous prices, but a conservative may have suggested that revenue be raised along with the entitlement, right? MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You slay me! ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/14 "2012-11-27T18:45:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m sure this won’t get me anywhere, but how have fiscal conservatives won? I would see a victory for fiscal conservatives to be a decrease in federal spending and a move towards a balanced budget. Neither of these is even close to what is happening. I have no clue what the hell you are talking about. To me, the conservative victory was during the Reagan, GHWB, and Clinton administrations. Which, you may recall, ended with a balanced budget. GWB went the other direction with unfunded entitlements (Medicare D) and warfare, as well as other large defense spending measures and even larger revenue reductions. After GWB, we had a large unfunded stimulus but beyond that we have had repeated discretionary spending cuts, and both parties are focused on spending reductions (some of which are already implemented, others of which come on Jan 1). Finally, the largest new entitlement program (PPACA) was entirely funded within the bill itself. And nobody outside maybe Kucinich and Bernie Sanders is talking about taking tax rates higher than they were under Clinton (when the budget was balanced) - and most (including the president) want them at Bush-era rates except for 2% of individuals. You have Democrats (including members of the deficit-reduction committee and congressional leadership) actively talking about Social Security reform and changes to Medicare. This was unheard of 20-30 years ago. The terms of the debate have changed entirely from, say, 1980. And the current terms are well to the right of where they were prior. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/15 "2012-11-28T02:59:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > If you believe what Paul Krugman is selling, you are not a conservative. It’s as simple as that. Find another name for yourself. That’s a pretty good summation of the modern conservative mentality. Bruce Bartlett was the architect of the Kemp-Roth tax cuts, the ones credited to Ronald Reagan. Paul Krugman worked for the Reagan administration. Both call the world like they see it. > [@Saint Cad](#): > > Criticizing Medicare D? Helping seniors pay for outrageously priced prescription drugs is bad? Better off criticizing the money we spent wandering around Iraq for no clear reason after Saddam was captured. Medicare Part D was fine: Bartlett’s problem was the it was financed by deficits, although admittedly he would have a problem with any expansion of the welfare state. The liberal problem was that it was needlessly expensive as it put straightjackets on the ability of Medicare to control pharm costs, much to the delight of Republican special interest donors. Finally, I think it’s reasonable for Bartlett to notice that he was fired for his conclusions (i.e. the GWBush admin was spendthrift) but for neither his logic nor his factual accuracy. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/16 "2012-11-28T04:07:30Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I’m sure this won’t get me anywhere, but how have fiscal conservatives won? I would see a victory for fiscal conservatives to be a decrease in federal spending and a move towards a balanced budget. Neither of these is even close to what is happening. I have no clue what the hell you are talking about. Conservatives want a balanced budget like a a drunk wants into rehab. Reagan and Bush ran up the deficit. Clinton balanced the budget for the first time in 60 years. Sure, Democrats are pretty much as blame-worthy, but it’s silly for Republicans to try to co-opt the Tea Party’s “anti-deficit” grassroots movement. The difference between Republicans and Tea Partiers is that Republicans love the military-industrial complex. _Love_ that shit. Tea Partiers hate _alll_ spending. Republicans do want lower taxes on the rich, and THAT is exactly what the poster in question meant when he said what he did. Taxes on the rich are the lowest in 70 years. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/17 "2012-11-28T06:32:57Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m curious as to where you think Krugman was wrong about the current downturn. He does seem to have been right about a lot of predictions, and not only for the US, but his predictions about the European and UK economies seem pretty spot on as well. To be fair, he didn’t say that Krugman was wrong about anything. He just said that (true) conservatives disagree with him. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/18 "2012-11-28T13:46:33Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > To be fair, he didn’t say that Krugman was wrong about anything. He just said that (true) conservatives disagree with him. Yes, that’s true. But, and I don’t want to speak for **WillFarnaby** , I don’t think he meant to imply that Krugman was right but conservatives disagree because they don’t care about facts. Unless, of course, this is a subtle whoosh or dig, in which case, carry on! My hair looks better already, what with all the air blowing over it. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/19 "2012-11-28T16:04:08Z")
I assume you mean ‘episiotomy closure’ which is not all that difficult, unless there’s a 3rd degree tear, then one must spend some extra time ensuring the musculature is repaired along with careful separation and repair of tissue between the rectal and the… What? Okay, I agree with a lot of what Bartlett said, even if it is rather self-promoting. _Epistemic Closure_. Nice term. Gotta remember that. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263/20 "2012-11-28T19:49:04Z")
The first time I heard it was on NPR – David Brooks mentioned it. There is a weekly discussion between him, E.J. Dionne (sp?) of the Washington Post, and the NPR All Things Considered host. He mentioned it right after the election, discussion how many Republicans got all their information from right-wing sources and were genuinely surprised that the actual election results pretty much matched the pre-election polls. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-bartlett-on-epistemic-closure/642263.md?page=2)