# Bruce Wayne, the vigilante know as Batman, is a stone cold killer. Get over it. (Wel **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367 "2005-02-22T17:17:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/41 "2005-02-23T15:04:55Z")
So, you think that since you see a lack of comics for kids, that **all** writters should have kids in mind when they write? If you want comics for kids there is always those stupid Archies. If you want something more well written however, you can buy some real classics in graphic novel form, or you can buy the titles below. There are many more good titles appropriate for children besides the titles below. Akiko Astro City Bone > **[CBR - The World's Top Destination For Comic, Movie & TV news.](https://www.cbr.com)** > > Covering comics, movies, tv like no other in the world. CBR.com is all you need! Cerebus Oddly Normal Little Lit Zot! Action Girl KODOCHA: Sana’s Stage Urusei Yatsure Murder Can Be Fun No, wait scratch that last one, it is for the great mature comics Oh, and Dork storm press is publishing quite afew good titles that are appropriate fo children such as: ps238, Dr Blink: Superhero Shrink and SnapDragons “Dark and Stormy Knights” Trick or treat! It’s another helping of SnapDragons, the all-ages comic book that really IS for all-ages! " And for the little H.P. Lovecraft fans out there (I loved haved loed this when I was a kid) [POKETHULHU: The hilarious game of cute, cuddly cultists and seizure-inducing evil!](http://archive.gamespy.com/comics/kovalic/pokethulhu/) As for my point, there is a nice discusion of the same points, at [http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.dc.universe/browse\_thread/thread/6c5740cd8d6d7749/db5919a38fcf1100?q=comics+%2B"kids+and+adults"&\_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3Dcomics+%2B"kids+and+adults"%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&\_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#db5919a38fcf1100](http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.arts.comics.dc.universe/browse_thread/thread/6c5740cd8d6d7749/db5919a38fcf1100?q=comics+%2B%22kids+and+adults%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3Dcomics+%2B%22kids+and+adults%22%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#db5919a38fcf1100) ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/42 "2005-02-23T15:14:36Z")
That’s it. **Scott\_plaid, Menocchio, tripthicket** and the rest of you – why the hell aren’t you-all helping out in my [Superhero Jargon thread?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=303188) You geeky bastards need to step up! ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/43 "2005-02-23T15:38:50Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > So, you think that since you see a lack of comics for kids, that **all** writters should have kids in mind when they write? Huh? Son, I think you been whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/44 "2005-02-23T17:12:02Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > So, you think that since you see a lack of comics for kids, that **all** writters should have kids in mind when they write? For the billonth time, only SUPERHERO comics should keep young readers in mind, and even then they should only be PRIMARILY kid-friendly. “Mature” superhero stuff should be the exception. Now I’d argue that it’s the rule. > [@](#): > > If you want comics for kids there is always those stupid Archies. Don’t be dissing Archie. It’s not great literature, but he’s been entertaining the young for nigh on 70 years. He’s also sold consistently well, even as our superheroes decline. Probably because you don’t have to go to the comic shop ghetto to find his books (but that’s another rant entirely). > [@](#): > > If you want something more well written however, you can buy some real classics in graphic novel form, or you can buy the titles below. There are many more good titles appropriate for children besides the titles below. Of those titles, I’ve only heard of Bone, Cerebus, and Astro City. None of them are big mainstream titles, and I’ve only heard Bone identified as a good family friendly comic. Are any of them superhero titles anyway? Because that’s what I’m talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/45 "2005-02-23T17:53:07Z")
> [@Menocchio](#): > > For the billonth time, only SUPERHERO comics should keep young readers in mind, and even then they should only be PRIMARILY kid-friendly. “Mature” superhero stuff should be the exception. Now I’d argue that it’s the rule. > > “even as our superheroes decline. Probably because you don’t have to go to the comic shop ghetto to find his books (but that’s another rant entirely).” > > Of those titles, I’ve only heard of Bone, Cerebus, and Astro City. None of them are big mainstream titles, and I’ve only heard Bone identified as a good family friendly comic. Are any of them superhero titles anyway? Because that’s what I’m talking about. It occurs to me that I have been doing your research for you. Well, I am about to do it again. Astro City Action Girl BlackJack Bone Cerebus Zot! [The new Caption Marvel series](http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=1421) that last one sounds like exactly the one of the kind you are looking for, and was mention in my last post, [albeit](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=albeit) , as a long url. ps238, Dr Blink: Superhero Shrink The marvel all ages series Are all good titles that involve superheroes, cerebus in particular is well draw, well written, and exposes a number of superhero stereotypes. BlackJack visits themes that have been done a million times over, and takes a fresh spin on them. Now. That is done. How about you mousey on down to the “comic shop ghetto”, ask for those titles, and then start a new thread of your own, because it is beginning to look like this is a thread hijack, and I will let this thread be [be shot down over the Sea of Japan, spin in, and have no survivors](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%2AA%2AS%2AH_%28TV_series%29), rather then have it taken to Cuba. If you already have a thread on this topic, then I am sorry, but I didn’t see it on the last few pages of any of the other forums, and I can’t access the search button to look for them. Now, does anyone care to add anything relating to the topic, or any idea of how I can treat a thread-hijacking better, then it is welcome. Very welcome in fact as I have been lurking for awhile before I began to post, but I didn’t see that many examples of hijacking, so I don’t know how it is handled 'round these parts. That includes disagreement, if it is on topic. No, not you, Menocchio. I don’t negotiate with Hijackers. If not, I am contend to let this thread die. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/46 "2005-02-23T18:07:50Z")
You can’t just shut down your thread because people disagree with you. Your initial premise regarding Batman could only be construed as correct from a naive, outsider point of view. The character history of the current Batman, as it stands, indicates that he hasn’t killed, and doesn’t kill. Your premise has been addressed. And yet, you still flail on. And honestly, I’m having trouble reading through the mangled sentences and words to see the point you’re trying to make. The random links explaining the references you make only serve as a distraction. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/47 "2005-02-23T18:12:59Z")
I am not saying that I will kill, or shut down the thread, I am saying that I am content to let it die for lack of response to the subject. If it doesn’t die, fine, but lately, all that I see is me responding to another person claiming that Superhero books should be written for kids, and kids alone, with no possibility that grown up fans might want to enjoy grow up stories of costumed vigilantes. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/48 "2005-02-23T18:20:17Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > I am not saying that I will kill, or shut down the thread, I am saying that I am content to let it die for lack of response to the subject. If it doesn’t die, fine, but lately, all that I see is me responding to another person claiming that Superhero books should be written for kids, and kids alone, with no possibility that grown up fans might want to enjoy grow up stories of costumed vigilantes. Menocchio, if I understand him correctly, is saying he feels that most Superhero comics should be PG-rated enough that they are accessible to children. Not all of them, but most. He feels that the R-Rated Superhero books have begun to dominate the industry. You seem to be exaggerating his position in your mind then responding to the exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/49 "2005-02-23T18:24:03Z")
I agree with CandidGamera. Complaining that the “Batman doesn’t kill/use guns” thing is bogus because of a couple Golden-Age stories (which don’t apply _at all_ Post-Crisis; you have to check out Batman: Year One for the current Batman’s origins) is like complaining that he doesn’t have a big grin on his face everytime he punches a bad guy like he did when he was drawn by Dick Sprang. I also disagree with Menocchio that Superhero comics have a special burden to be kid-friendly, especially since, as mentioned, they grew out of the extremely violent pulps and only abandoned that sensibility when they adopted incredibly strict self-censorship and have been embracing the more lewd aspects of the pulps and early comics in varying degrees ever since the code started to crumble. And anyway, the target audience for comics isn’t as young as it once was. And even if it was, young boys _like_ violent stories and the idea that they’re reading something that their parents would find objectionable. Erik Larsen made this point once regarding Savage Dragon and why he stuffs a lot of sex and violence into it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/50 "2005-02-23T18:32:38Z")
I’m still wondering how _Bone_ and _Cerebus_ can be in any way considered “superhero” titles. Sending up superhero tropes doesn’t cut it. Even if it involves the Merely Magnificent Moon Roach. _hssssssssss_ ---
**Author:** ![Gamaliel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b487fb/32.png) [@Gamaliel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gamaliel)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/51 "2005-02-23T18:40:35Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > They’ve retconned Joe Chill out, so I don’t think Year Two is in continuity anymore > 🙂 I get whiplash trying to keep up with the DC universe. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/52 "2005-02-23T18:47:10Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > Menocchio, if I understand him correctly, is saying he feels that most Superhero comics should be PG-rated enough that they are accessible to children. Not all of them, but most. He feels that the R-Rated Superhero books have begun to dominate the industry. You seem to be exaggerating his position in your mind then responding to the exaggeration. You understand me very well, except that I think the length and tendancy to self-reference of books is as big of, if not a greater barrier to kid friendliness. **shy guy** makes some good points, which I can’t properly refute. I admit that I’m more biased towards the silver-age, rather than the pulpy golden age, when superheroes were fun and sometimes complex, but mostly lighthearted and noble. I’m also interested in drawing more girls (and women) to comics, and I think cutting down on the T&A (more than the violence) would help there. As for the charges of highjacking, I’d argue that this is germane to the topic of Batman killing. A psychopath (as Batman would be if he killed, it’s not just the violence, it’s the violence on top of everything else) is not a good hero for a kid’s title. Batman, as one of the top iconic characters, should be a kid’s title. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/53 "2005-02-23T20:49:09Z")
> [@High Cheese](#): > > Oh, Batman uses guns A’right. > > [Cite.](http://www.excalibur-design.com/content/artwork/batman.jpg) I don’t get it. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/54 "2005-02-23T20:50:46Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I don’t get it. 😕 Large, over muscled arms are often called “guns” ---
**Author:** ![shy\_guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@shy\_guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shy_guy)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/55 "2005-02-23T21:55:28Z")
> [@](#): > > 'm also interested in drawing more girls (and women) to comics, and I think cutting down on the T&A (more than the violence) would help there. I agree. As I mentioned in the “Will Hot Girls Save Comics” (or whatever) thread in CS, I think getting away from (or at least diversifying) the “traditional” (although it’s really only started to get really bad from the 1970’s onward, imo) style of comic art will do as much as anything to lure female readers, who I don’t blame one bit from being turned off by the normally somewhat disgusting portrayal of females featured in most comics. That’s not to say that I don’t think there’s a place for the traditional representation of women, nor do I necessarily think it something that needs to be toned down for a “kid’s” comic, although we haven’t really narrowed down our definition of “kid” for the purposes of this thread and I think that’s where much of the disagreement is probably coming from. When I think “kid,” I’m including people like 8-year-old (implicitly heterosexual) boys, who are all about seeing the Punisher mow down some gangsters to save a scantily-clad woman with enormous breasts. I also agree that the nature of current comics to be anything but self-contained is a much greater barrier to the wooing of younger readers and would go as far as to make that the most prominent and most difficult to overcome obstacle (ahead of violence, T&A, etc.) in an industry used to decompression and the trade paperback. Of course, I say this as someone who quite enjoys JSA, a book which practically requires a graduate degree in the DCU to understand all the references. To bring this somewhat back to the OP, I do respectufully disagree with your feeling, Menocchio, that a Batman who kills would not be a good children’s hero (although again we run into the problem of the definition of “kid”). I hate to again appeal to older, pulp traditions, but characters like the Phantom and the Shadow have killed at various frequencies and I think they’re fine heroes for even the youngest of comic book readers. Or, for a more modern example, there’s Wolverine (and when I was first buying comics at 6, 7, and 8 years old, Punisher and Ghost Rider were all the rage, not to mention all the uber-violent Image heroes a couple years later). Although I guess he’s not a role model, per se. Which isn’t to say that I think extreme violence is a necessary quality of superhero books (indeed, I don’t read any of that sort at the moment) or that I think there is no place for lighthearted books (Batman Adventures was easily one of the best series of the 90’s), I just don’t think that lightheartedness is a prerequisite for being a ‘kid’s’ book or, again, that the superhero market should necessarily produce those types of books. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/56 "2005-02-24T01:25:58Z")
> [@shy guy](#): > > To bring this somewhat back to the OP, I do respectufully disagree with your feeling, Menocchio, that a Batman who kills would not be a good children’s hero (although again we run into the problem of the definition of “kid”). I hate to again appeal to older, pulp traditions, but characters like the Phantom and the Shadow have killed at various frequencies and I think they’re fine heroes for even the youngest of comic book readers. Or, for a more modern example, there’s Wolverine (and when I was first buying comics at 6, 7, and 8 years old, Punisher and Ghost Rider were all the rage, not to mention all the uber-violent Image heroes a couple years later). Although I guess he’s not a role model, per se. I agree that some characters can kill and remain all-age appropriate, but Batman’s on the razor’s edge of psychotic as is these days. Ironically, a less grim and angsty Batman could get away with more violence. By kid, I mean 7-13, both genders. I think there’s enough superhero-like girls these days in other media (Kim Possible, Buffy, the Power Puff Girls) that I think the market is there. It’s not so much violence that’s the problem, but the general nihilism and gore that accompanies it. Kids can handle a soldier, but not an out and out psycho presented as a hero. Too many antiheroes go that way. I admit that I’m trying to be as parent-friendly as I am kid-friendly. I’m not for censorship. But a little restraint would go a long way in convincing parents that the latest adventures of Batman is something they should be buying their kids. At least he’s reading, right? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/57 "2005-02-24T01:32:25Z")
Speaking as a parent and a comics fan, this is why I’m disappointed that DC (finally) cancelled their kid-friendly [_Batman Adventures_](http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/batribute/gallery/stand/) series, based on the animated show. Not only did it have great Bruce Timm-inspired art, not only did it have “done in one” stories that anyone can jump into, not only did it have kick-arse writing that adults would find respectable, but it did all this while being 100% kid-friendly without compromising the essence of Batman himself. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/58 "2005-02-24T02:23:01Z")
> [@Gamaliel](#): > > I get whiplash trying to keep up with the DC universe. I only follow the Bat-titles, which really haven’t been all that bad regarding continuity. Especially compared with some of the Marvel titles I follow, like the X-Men. Of course, that’s probably because until 10 years ago the Batman story stayed pretty static from month to month. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/59 "2005-02-24T03:26:54Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Speaking as a parent and a comics fan, this is why I’m disappointed that DC (finally) cancelled their kid-friendly [_Batman Adventures_](http://wf.toonzone.net/WF/batribute/gallery/stand/) series, based on the animated show. Not only did it have great Bruce Timm-inspired art, not only did it have “done in one” stories that anyone can jump into, not only did it have kick-arse writing that adults would find respectable, but it did all this while being 100% kid-friendly without compromising the essence of Batman himself. Exactly. Batman adventures was everything I want from a comic book. And, IMO, the perfect Batman. Not campy, but not crazy dark either. I just wish DC would do that kind of thing for their non-animated properties. ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367/60 "2005-02-24T16:28:38Z")
I feel a big void in my soul because I grew up with the Batman TV show as I was never a huge fan of superhero\* comics fan. That pantywaist, nancy boy would cover his eyes when trying to chase bad guys through a women’s dressing room so he’d be about as likely to kill one as would Jainist. \*Yes, I know Batman isn’t technically a superhero [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bruce-wayne-the-vigilante-know-as-batman-is-a-stone-cold-killer-get-over-it-wel/291367.md?page=4)