# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/201 "2013-06-18T18:22:41Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Nobody was expecting a spiritual Messiah. Again, transferring him from physical Messiah to spiritual Messiah was forced on his followers by the fact of his public execution. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/202 "2013-06-18T18:25:53Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Not sure what you mean here. The beginning church was considered at first a faction of Judaism, and only developed into something otherwise through its missions to the Gentiles. They didn’t rule anything, and were barely tolerated by the other Jews. The Apostles held some weight, did they not? I’m not sure what you think is unique about the supposed resurrection of Jesus Christ to a public accustomed to resurrection myths. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/203 "2013-06-18T18:26:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again, transferring him from physical Messiah to spiritual Messiah was forced on his followers by the fact of his public execution. There’s nothing in the NT to indicate they were that smart or crafty, and there just aren’t any documents of the time or earlier where people make themselves look like fools to promote a cause. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/204 "2013-06-18T18:29:39Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > There’s nothing in the NT to indicate they were that smart or crafty, and there just aren’t any documents of the time or earlier where people make themselves look like fools to promote a cause. “Shit! They killed him! What do we do now?” “Steal the body and tell people he rose from the dead. That seems to happen a lot to the other messiahs.” Yeah-_that_ took a lot of smarts and craft. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/205 "2013-06-18T18:30:58Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > The Apostles held some weight, did they not? I’m not sure what you think is unique about the supposed resurrection of Jesus Christ to a public accustomed to resurrection myths. Read Acts. Over the course of their lifetimes the apostles gained influence, but early on they were at risk. Stephen was stoned to death by other Jews for advocating a superior position for Jesus’s works. The Hebrews were really big on being a separate people: resurrection stories would not have been that readily accepted. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/206 "2013-06-18T18:32:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Shit! They killed him! What do we do now?” > “Steal the body and tell people he rose from the dead. That seems to happen a lot to the other messiahs.” > > Yeah-_that_ took a lot of smarts and craft. :rolleyes: The other Messiahs I spoke of stayed dead. Who did you have in mind? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/207 "2013-06-18T18:32:38Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Aside from that, Jesus may have retracted his claim of divinity once, but by and large he made a habit of implying he was the half-immortal son of God. With that kind of prelude, a posse of yes-men, and a reputation for performing magical feats the crowd was primed for a final extraordinary act that would shore up his claims of divine parentage. > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Your interesting perspective on Christ’s ministry points up the key issue: if it is as you stated, wouldn’t the whole thing have fallen flat if he didn’t return from the grave? > [@Troppus](#): > > Did it fall flat in the Egyptian empire? > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I confess I’m lost. Are you referring to Moses and the Exodus? No, I’m pointing out that the religions which inspired Christianity were also built on claims of resurrection and promise of an afterlife. Do you also believe that Quetzalcoatl, Odin, Osiris, etc returned after death? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/208 "2013-06-18T18:35:07Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Stephen was stoned to death by other Jews for advocating a superior position for Jesus’s works. Shrug. It happens. Mind the list of beheaded European monarchs. Prior to beheading, each was an influential leader credited with making and enforcing policy up to and including method of worship. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/209 "2013-06-18T18:38:08Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The other Messiahs I spoke of stayed dead. Who did you have in mind? Besides a popularity contest, what evidence do you have that your Messiah is the only one that was resurrected? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/210 "2013-06-18T18:39:46Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > No, I’m pointing out that the religions which inspired Christianity were also built on claims of resurrection and promise of an afterlife. Do you also believe that Quetzalcoatl, Odin, Osiris, etc returned after death? I am startled to discover that Christianity was inspired by Quetzalcoatl and Odin. Osiris is a better choice, and no doubt you meant Tammuz, Baal, Adonis and Dionysus as well. No, I don’t. Why would I? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/211 "2013-06-18T18:41:28Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I assumed he meant he didn’t expect _skeptics_ to accept it. But he certainly has enjoyed some kinship with others making similar claims. The same types of people would have been receptive to religious epiphany 2,000 years ago. But your point is undermined by that, not strengthened. I’m possibly the most prolific poster in this thread who has claimed to have had similar experiences. I accept his story here, for the same reason, I assume, he accepts mine - it has a familiar “flavour” to it that strikes me as genuine. However, unlike him, I never attributed it to a divine or supernatural source. I was and remain a non-believer in gods (though open to the notion that existing reality is worthy of worship in a purely non-supernatural way). In an argument from theology, I’d be the “con” side, not the “pro”. Arguments from personal, mystic experience are simply not convincing to others. Even others who have had the same experiences, do not put the same interpretation on those experiences. That being said, I’m sure that such experiences did have some significant influence on the development of religion. However, religions spread not because people have such experiences, but because they are capable of articulating to others and convincing people who have not had such experiences to join the religion - in short, that they are able to provide something meaningful to people. Descriptions of mystic experiences - which invariably sound either silly or lamely vague to people who have not had them (and which cannot be shared or predicted) - are very low on the totem pole of convincing techniques. It is only when mysticism provides the inspiration to someone who is otherwise gifted at convincing, that it has any sort of impact. Religions have many aspects - they can provide a code of rules to live by, they can provide a mythological explaination for observed reality, they can provide rituals which provide a framework for living within, and they can, last and least, be an outgrowth of mystic experiences. The latter aspect does not sit easily or naturally with the former aspect. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/212 "2013-06-18T18:43:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Besides a popularity contest, what evidence do you have that your Messiah is the only one that was resurrected? Well, we’ve already been over the question of evidence. None that you’d accept, apparently. I am also unaware of any other contenders still present today. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/213 "2013-06-18T18:43:18Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I am startled to discover that Christianity was inspired by Quetzalcoatl and Odin. > Osiris is a better choice, and no doubt you meant Tammuz, Baal, Adonis and Dionysus as well. No, I don’t. Why would I? Resurrection is a pretty popular theme, universal and timeless as well. Any people brought up believing in a resurrected god are primed to believe in new, trendy resurrected god. It’s kind of what Christian missionaries count on when they invade primitive cultures, no? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/214 "2013-06-18T18:46:53Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Arguments from personal, mystic experience are simply not convincing to others. Even others who have had the same experiences, do not put the same interpretation on those experiences. _cough_ An entire religion sprung from a handful of people who claimed to have seen the resurrected Christ. It would seem that extraordinary claims are\* all \*that is necessary to convince huge numbers of folks to jump on a bandwagon. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/215 "2013-06-18T18:47:55Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Resurrection is a pretty popular theme, universal and timeless as well. Any people brought up believing in a resurrected god are primed to believe in new, trendy resurrected god. It’s kind of what Christian missionaries count on when they invade primitive cultures, no? No. Try reading Fox’s Book of Martyrs. Christianity has not been met with open arms in almost every place they’ve gone. Usually the missionaries have to arrive and stay long enough for people to get the idea they aren’t bad people after all, and then they can start building. The idea of an afterlife is fairly universal, so that is often met with indifference. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/216 "2013-06-18T18:48:13Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Well, we’ve already been over the question of evidence. None that you’d accept, apparently. No-None that is better than the evidence for any other messiah of the time. > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I am also unaware of any other contenders still present today. That doesn’t exactly go against my “popularity contest” comment, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/217 "2013-06-18T18:54:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-None that is better than the evidence for any other messiah of the time. That doesn’t exactly go against my “popularity contest” comment, does it? Let me see if I have your position clear: Jesus proclaims himself the Messiah, then dies a dishonorable death. The disciples, instead of scattering to the winds, come up with a plot that eventually leads to a worldwide religion. Meanwhile all the other pretenders to the Messiahship die, but, since they weren’t popular enough, they remain known only to historians. Is that a fair summation? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/218 "2013-06-18T18:57:13Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > _cough_ An entire religion sprung from a handful of people who claimed to have seen the resurrected Christ. It would seem that extraordinary claims are\* all \*that is necessary to convince huge numbers of folks to jump on a bandwagon. A claim that a man actually came back from the dead is a claim about a miracle. A claim that someone has had a mystic experience is considerably less than that; and some, like me, although we believe such experiences happen (hey, it happened to me, or so at least I’m claiming), do not think they are in any way supernatural. In short, the type of “brushes with the divine” we are talking about (mystic experiences) are not the same as claims of witnessing actual miracles. Moreover, I would contest that mystic experiences are “extraordinary claims”. While the experiences themselves are wholly subjective, there is at least some phsyical evidence that they happen - in EEGs of people’s brains. > **[EEG activity in Carmelite nuns during a mystical experience - PubMed](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18721862/)** > > Mystical experiences relate to a fundamental dimension of human existence. These experiences, which are characterized by a sense of union with God, are commonly reported across all cultures. To date, no electroencephalography (EEG) study has been... > [@](#): > > Abstract > > Mystical experiences relate to a fundamental dimension of human existence. These experiences, which are characterized by a sense of union with God, are commonly reported across all cultures. To date, no electroencephalography (EEG) study has been conducted to identify the neuroelectrical correlates of such experiences. The main objective of this study was to measure EEG spectral power and coherence in 14 Carmelite nuns during a mystical experience. EEG activity was recorded from 19 scalp locations during a resting state, a control condition and a mystical condition. In the mystical condition compared to control condition, electrode sites showed greater theta power at F3, C3, P3, Fz, Cz and Pz, and greater gamma1 power was detected at T4 and P4. Higher delta/beta ratio, theta/alpha ratio and theta/beta ratio were found for several electrode sites. In addition, FP1-C3 pair of electrodes displayed greater coherence for theta band while F4-P4, F4-T6, F8-T6 and C4-P4 pairs of electrodes showed greater coherence for alpha band. These results indicate that mystical experiences are mediated by marked changes in EEG power and coherence. These changes implicate several cortical areas of the brain in both hemispheres. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/219 "2013-06-18T19:01:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > A claim that a man actually came back from the dead is a claim about a miracle. > > A claim that someone has had a mystic experience is considerably less than that; and some, like me, although we believe such experiences happen (hey, it happened to me, or so at least I’m claiming), do not think they are in any way supernatural. > > In short, the type of “brushes with the divine” we are talking about (mystic experiences) are not the same as claims of witnessing actual miracles. > > Moreover, I would contest that mystic experiences are “extraordinary claims”. While the experiences themselves are wholly subjective, there is at least some phsyical evidence that they happen - in EEGs of people’s brains. > > [EEG activity in Carmelite nuns during a mystical experience - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18721862) Where’s your evidence that anyone witnessed an “actual miracle” or a dead body return to life and walk about in mortal form? A \*mystic experience \*is a pretty generous assessment of an unsupported, unsubstantiated claim that hasn’t been replicated since. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/220 "2013-06-18T19:04:30Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Let me see if I have your position clear: > Jesus proclaims himself the Messiah, then dies a dishonorable death. The disciples, instead of scattering to the winds, come up with a plot that eventually leads to a worldwide religion. Meanwhile all the other pretenders to the Messiahship die, but, since they weren’t popular enough, they remain known only to historians. > > Is that a fair summation? That’s usually how history works-the victor gets the good publicity, and the loser gets forgotten. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=12)