# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/241 "2013-06-18T21:43:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > See post #230. Aggghhh! ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/242 "2013-06-18T21:55:18Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Let me see if I have your position clear: > Jesus proclaims himself the Messiah, then dies a dishonorable death. The disciples, instead of scattering to the winds, come up with a plot that eventually leads to a worldwide religion. Meanwhile all the other pretenders to the Messiahship die, but, since they weren’t popular enough, they remain known only to historians. > > Is that a fair summation? I could go with that too. They didn’t even have to actually steal the body. Remember how the 'holy spirit visits them? That’s when they ‘realise’ he has come back. It was a spiritual ressurection at first. Paul still talks about a spiritual Jesus, only later does it get embellished to a bodily ressurection, with stories about the tomb. There’s loads of adherants to ideoligies that cannot face the fact that they were wrong and turn their loss into a temporary setback. “No! Eventually we will be proven right!” > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The TV camera and studio audience were on a revolving platform. The view was blocked. It was night. They revolved. David Copperfield doesn’t claim to perform anything but stage illusion. I’ve met a girl that truly believed Copperfield performs real actual magic. Don’t underestimate the level of stupid out there. That girl will have children and raise them already taking certain things for granted. Had Copperfield been a religious person on a mission, over time this could have become huge. There will always be suckers that follow a reasonably charismatic person, and they will spread to non-suckers by marriage (who want to keep their spouse happy) and their children by imbueing them with it. The examples of this are legion. > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Peter is by turns an overenthusiastic zealot and a frightened coward. James and John get nicknamed “Sons of Thunder” indicating they are angry, empty loudmouths. > > Why wouldn’t the authors look back and think they’d have done it better? Because there’s no advantage to them doing so. If the disciples had been presented as bastions of virtue, it would have been easier for them to be held up as models for the faith. > > The stories are unique. The other Messiahs didn’t inspire disciples and writings decades after their deaths. As **Czarcasm** has already pointed out, the stories in the NT were not written by the disciples. Paul’s church was in fact in direct competition with the actual disciples, namely Peter, and very much at odds with the congregation back home in Judea, led by Jezus’s own brother.. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/243 "2013-06-18T23:00:55Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you believe people (including your grandfather) can inherit eternal life even if they do not take Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? > What do you mean by that? Yes, I do. I mean that particular bible passages and characterizing the bible as “intolerant” is beside the point since I am not a bible literalist. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/244 "2013-06-19T00:40:11Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Sure the Bible is at times contradictory but peoples fates are predestined or they aren’t. God is all sovereign or he isn’t. If everyone’s fates are predetermined and/or everything happens in accordance with your god’s will, then there is no room for free will. > > Relevant Bible verses are: > > Romans 8: 29-30 > Romans 9:13-21 > Ephesians 1: 4-5 > Ephesians 1:11 > > A quick google search makes me think that as a Presbyterian you should be favoring predestination over free will. > > [Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)](http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/today/predestination/) > > However as a “liberal” interpretor of the Bible I imagine implications regarding predestination will cause you to waffle on the subject. Okay, I explained my position that God, being outside of time, knows the future and the choices we will make. People, being inside time, don’t know the future and make choices of their own free will. You insisted that this idea is modern liberalism. Pish-tush. It was the opinion of the following “modern liberals”: C. S. Lewis, early 20th Century; Thomas Aquinas, 13th Century, and Boethius, 6th Century. And it wasn’t new with Boethius, or even with Paul and the authors of 1-2 Peter and 1-3 John. The concept of predestination dates back to the ancient Greeks. The notion that predestination precludes free will doesn’t even enter the picture until the 16th Century and the troublesome John Calvin. And once again, no, most Presbyterians don’t assume that predestination means God has fore-ordained hellfire and damnation. John 3:16-17 and other salvation-inclusive passages are more commonly believed by all but the most separatist denominations. As to the scriptures you mentioned: Romans 8:29-30 speaks of God’s foreknowledge and predestination of those who are called. Back up though, from Chapter 7 onwards he is making the case that Christ’s salvation is not just for the Jew, but for all who believe in him, Gentile as well as Jew, and that the Gentiles are called as well. This large section is inclusive in tone, and does not talk of damnation anywhere. Romans 9 is a reiteration that all of humanity is eligible for salvation, however, the section you refer to does speak of God hardening the hearts of those who are not called so they cannot be saved. It also illustrates the idea that humans are not suitable judges of God’s motivations, leaving that as a mystery. Ephesians 1:4-5, 11 are all part of a passage which does not refer to the Christian community, nor the Jews, nor the Gentiles: it refers to the apostles and early missionaries, as stated in 1:12, “to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of his glory”. (NASB) And it goes on: “In him, you also, having listened to the message of truth, the glory of your salvation – having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.” Inclusive message of salvation for all mankind. By the way, when shopping at Amazon for Sam Harris books, I noticed he’s written one titled “Free Will”. I haven’t read it, but the blurbs and reviews indicate that he doesn’t believe humans have Free Will either. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/245 "2013-06-19T05:58:35Z")
> [@Randvek (on page 1)](#): > > Why is it that threads on atheism or Christianity get page after page, but a thread on actual, denomination-neutral experiences like this gets so little interest? I am beginning to think that people only care about religion or no religion when they can attack someone over it. No shit. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/246 "2013-06-19T12:22:06Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Well, besides the New Testament, we have the testimony of two millennia of Christians, and the existence of the church. So not one eyewitness? The Mormon golden plates are better attested. Do you believe in them? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/247 "2013-06-19T12:24:19Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Genesis’s origin story is largely allegorical and aimed at explaining first causes to a primitive society, while creating a sense of identity and community in that society. Is that your nice way of saying, “yes it’s wrong, someone just made it up” or do you mean more than that? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/248 "2013-06-19T12:27:28Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Luke says he’s quoting eyewitness testimony, and that’s as close as anyone will ever get. If he’s really quoting eyewitness testimony, why is he copying so much from Mark? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/249 "2013-06-19T12:28:12Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So not one eyewitness? The Mormon golden plates are better attested. Do you believe in them? Really? The plates were reportedly seen be a dozen witnesses, all of whom were obviously partisan. I mentioned 1 Corinthians refers to over 500 witnesses to Christ’s resurrection and you hooted it down because it was partisan. I don’t see where that makes them better attested. And no, I don’t believe in them. It seems very odd to me that God gave the Hebrews the OT in Hebrew, the Greek-speaking world the NT in Greek, and then would give American Indians the Book of Mormon in Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/250 "2013-06-19T12:30:49Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > If he’s really quoting eyewitness testimony, why is he copying so much from Mark? The author of Mark traditionally received his information directly from Peter, who was an eyewitness. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/251 "2013-06-19T12:32:26Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Is that your nice way of saying, “yes it’s wrong, someone just made it up” or do you mean more than that? I mean more than that, but with all the other discussions in this thread, I’m not getting into this one. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/252 "2013-06-19T12:35:46Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Genesis’s origin story is largely allegorical and aimed at explaining first causes to a primitive society, while creating a sense of identity and community in that society. You make it sound as if the book was carefully designed by some advanced society, then delivered to the primitive society. The book was written _by_ someone in that primitive society, with the same mindset _as_ that primitive society-it is more likely that the author believed what he wrote, rather than he tried to “use allegory to explain first causes”. You might be confusing the author’s original intent with later rationalizations of the contents. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/253 "2013-06-19T12:40:49Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Really? The plates were reportedly seen be a dozen witnesses, all of whom were obviously partisan. I mentioned 1 Corinthians refers to over 500 witnesses to Christ’s resurrection and you hooted it down because it was partisan. I don’t see where that makes them better attested. And no, I don’t believe in them. It seems very odd to me that God gave the Hebrews the OT in Hebrew, the Greek-speaking world the NT in Greek, and then would give American Indians the Book of Mormon in Latin. Were there actually over a dozen witnesses that could be identified and questioned or was it just a _claim_, like the previous hearsay claim of 500 witnesses for Jesus you made earlier? edited to add: The “500 witness” claim wasn’t dismissed because it was partisan-it was dismissed because it was _hearsay_…unless you are willing to believe my claim that 10,000 witnesses saw me climb the Empire State Building. Who are you to argue with 10,000 witnesses? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/254 "2013-06-19T12:42:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You make it sound as if the book was carefully designed by some advanced society, then delivered to the primitive society. The book was written _by_ someone in that primitive society, with the same mindset _as_ that primitive society-it is more likely that the author believed what he wrote, rather than he tried to “use allegory to explain first causes”. You might be confusing the author’s original intent with later rationalizations of the contents. There is considerable textual evidence in Genesis that the work has been repeatedly redacted, combining various forms of the same stories together in an attempt to make a coherent whole. The original authors most probably did believe it. The redactors may have believed it. There’s an awful lot of parallels between the origin stories and tales from Egyptian, Akkadian, Babylonian and other religions, enough to posit that each has put its own cultural and geographic spin on an ur-narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/255 "2013-06-19T12:45:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Were there actually over a dozen witnesses that could be identified and questioned or was it just a _claim_, like the previous hearsay claim of 500 witnesses for Jesus you made earlier? [Book of Mormon witnesses - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses). Judge for yourself. At least they have names, and they didn’t contradict each other to any great extent. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/256 "2013-06-19T12:46:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Were there actually over a dozen witnesses that could be identified and questioned or was it just a _claim_, like the previous hearsay claim of 500 witnesses for Jesus you made earlier? > edited to add: The “500 witness” claim wasn’t dismissed because it was partisan-it was dismissed because it was _hearsay_…unless you are willing to believe my claim that 10,000 witnesses saw me climb the Empire State Building. Who are you to argue with 10,000 witnesses? Okay, granted the distinction between partisanship and hearsay. It still doesn’t impel me to believe in the Book of Mormon. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/257 "2013-06-19T12:47:10Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > As I said at the start, if I hadn’t had this experience I would be an atheist (or possibly just agnostic). I can’t blame you for not accepting anecdotal evidence for miracles, and I can’t prove them either. See this is your problem in a nutshell right here. You know the evidence for the resurrection is insufficient to warrant belief. However you claim you have this extra evidence that none of us can see. But when you tell is about your extra evidence, you are not Thomas who saw the holes in the hands of Jesus. You are just some guy who heard a song, or just thinks he did. As far as you have written you have no way of knowing that the song was sung by Jesus or by and angle sent by Jesus. That’s just what you attached it to because it’s the religion myth you know the best. That’s irrational. Just think about it. It’s considerably more likely that aliens were probing you and that’s why you heard the song, then some dead guy named Jesus or one of his angels sang it to you. It’s also more likely that you just imagined you heard it, had a hallucination, or someone drove by playing his radio loud. Some ghost playing it for you is likely the least probable (I’ll go so far as to say impossible) of all explanations, and to top it off you think you can say what particular ghost sent the singer, yet admit you couldn’t see either and you couldn’t understand what any of the words were. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/258 "2013-06-19T12:47:58Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > There is considerable textual evidence in Genesis that the work has been repeatedly redacted, combining various forms of the same stories together in an attempt to make a coherent whole. The original authors most probably did believe it. The redactors may have believed it. There’s an awful lot of parallels between the origin stories and tales from Egyptian, Akkadian, Babylonian and other religions, enough to posit that each has put its own cultural and geographic spin on an ur-narrative. Then it wasn’t originally allegory, and thus it isn’t allegory _now_. You can’t turn someone else’s inaccurate story into allegory by decree-it has to be the intent of the original author. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/259 "2013-06-19T12:49:10Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, granted the distinction between partisanship and hearsay. It still doesn’t impel me to believe in the Book of Mormon. And Jesus’ supposed 500 witnesses? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/260 "2013-06-19T12:50:51Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The problem of man’s suffering for no known reason is dealt with in the Book of Job, but since that’s the initial “Man is not in a position to judge God” stance, to apply it would be circular here. since I’m trying to make a case for it. So I am, at least at the moment, left without a counterproposal. I think if you do a web search of popular Christian apologetics you will come back blaming evil on free will. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=14)