# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/281 "2013-06-19T13:15:35Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Anything else! Any non-miraculous explanation, regardless of how unlikely it may seem, is more likely than a miraculous one. Disagree? No, I don’t disagree. Miracles are irrational and scientifically can’t be accepted, UNLESS IT HAPPENS TO YOU. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/282 "2013-06-19T13:17:05Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Only the strictest of fundamentalists take it literally. It’s a little more widespread than you think(or hope). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/283 "2013-06-19T13:18:24Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I’ve already agreed that if I was raised in India I would accept this in accordance with the prevalent faith. I really DON’T know what happened here. My thought was and is that since I had been presented with a personal epiphany that God exists, I should seriously explore the ramifications of that, and the most obvious place to start was the Christian church, since it’s the most prevalent. Through trial and consideration, I eventually came to the Presbyterians largely because they encourage discussions of comparative religion and how that relates to the Bible, and because their social religion platform is uniformly beneficial to humanity. You started your research with one religion that was local to you…and stopped there. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/284 "2013-06-19T13:18:52Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I didn’t think you were trying to persuade or convert your readers. But I am curious as to your bias towards Christianity when you have knowledge of quite a few similar belief systems. Or why not just credit your experience to a twinge in the parietal lobes? Well, when I started I didn’t have knowledge of all those systems. If presented with the fact that God exists, and you’re in Midwestern America, why wouldn’t you go to the prevailing religion? And I repeat, I have considered the idea that it was a hallucination, but there is nothing hereditarily, biologically or experientially to confirm that, and the sense of immanence is not something that can be ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/285 "2013-06-19T13:20:09Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You are trying to get people to accept a whole lot more than the claim that you heard a song. Why are you attaching so much specific theological baggage to your hearing a non-descriptive song? Again, I’m not trying to get you to accept it. The song was merely the medium for the message. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/286 "2013-06-19T13:23:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And if it didn’t actually happen, what actual event caused Mankind’s fall from grace? This question has no answer. And interpretations of the story of Adam and Eve number in the thousands, because there’s be about three millenia or more to think about it. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/287 "2013-06-19T13:23:42Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, I explained my position that God, being outside of time, knows the future and the choices we will make. People, being inside time, don’t know the future and make choices of their own free will. People inside time’s free will is only an illusion if they are unable to change the part that was played out in advance for them by your god. A puppet that can’t see his strings is not free. > [@](#): > > You insisted that this idea is modern liberalism. Pish-tush. It was the opinion of the following “modern liberals”: C. S. Lewis, early 20th Century; Thomas Aquinas, 13th Century, and Boethius, 6th Century. And it wasn’t new with Boethius, or even with Paul and the authors of 1-2 Peter and 1-3 John. The concept of predestination dates back to the ancient Greeks. I remember reading that from Lewis? He copied from those other guys? I’m aware of the greeks. Hector talked about his fate in the Iliad. > [@](#): > > The notion that predestination precludes free will doesn’t even enter the picture until the 16th Century and the troublesome John Calvin. I think Hector knew his will wasn’t free. Apparently among Christians Calvin was the first one smart enough to put 2 and 2 together. > [@](#): > > And once again, no, most Presbyterians don’t assume that predestination means God has fore-ordained hellfire and damnation. John 3:16-17 and other salvation-inclusive passages are more commonly believed by all but the most separatist denominations. Yeah, I find Calvin is out of favor these days. If your god predestines people to hell, he’s a monster. Unfortunately, that’s pretty much what the Bible says in some parts, and what logically follows if you believe that everything happens in accordance with God’s will. > [@](#): > > Romans 8:29-30 speaks of God’s foreknowledge and predestination of those who are called. Thanks. > [@](#): > > Romans 9 is a reiteration that all of humanity is eligible for salvation, however, the section you refer to does speak of God hardening the hearts of those who are not called so they cannot be saved. Thanks. > [@](#): > > Ephesians 1:4-5, 11 are all part of a passage which does not refer to the Christian community, nor the Jews, nor the Gentiles: it refers to the apostles and early missionaries, as stated in 1:12, “to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ should be to the praise of his glory”. (NASB) And it goes on: “In him, you also, having listened to the message of truth, the glory of your salvation – having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.” Inclusive message of salvation for all mankind. Predestined according to His will it says. I imagine that means the one’s He didn’t harden the hearts of, as you mentioned above. > [@](#): > > By the way, when shopping at Amazon for Sam Harris books, I noticed he’s written one titled “Free Will”. I haven’t read it, but the blurbs and reviews indicate that he doesn’t believe humans have Free Will either. That is true. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/288 "2013-06-19T13:26:31Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The author of Mark traditionally received his information directly from Peter, who was an eyewitness. “The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author.[2] A tradition evident in the 2nd century ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist (also known as John Mark), the companion of Peter,[10] on whose memories it is supposedly based.[1][11][12][13] However, according to the majority view, the author is unknown, the author’s use of varied sources telling against the traditional account.[14][15] The gospel was written in Greek, probably around AD 60-70, possibly in Syria.[7][16]” > **[Gospel of Mark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark#Composition_and_setting)** > > The Gospel of Mark\[a\] is the second of the four canonical Gospels and one of the three synoptic Gospels. It tells of the ministry of Jesus from his baptism by John the Baptist to his death, the burial of his body, and the discovery of his empty tomb. It portrays Jesus as a teacher, an exorcist, a healer, and a miracle worker, though it does not mention a miraculous birth or divine pre-existence. Jesus refers to himself as the Son of Man. He is called the Son of God but keeps his messianic natu... ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/289 "2013-06-19T13:28:35Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I mean more than that, but with all the other discussions in this thread, I’m not getting into this one. I wouldn’t either if I were you. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/290 "2013-06-19T13:29:29Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Well, when I started I didn’t have knowledge of all those systems. If presented with the fact that God exists, and you’re in Midwestern America, why wouldn’t you go to the prevailing religion? And I repeat, I have considered the idea that it was a hallucination, but there is nothing hereditarily, biologically or experientially to confirm that, and the sense of immanence is not something that can be ignored. No, I’d get to a doctor straightaway. Even if my apparent epiphany had a mystical flavor, I’d never be so egocentric as to entertain the idea that my unique existence warrants a tailored message from a god. At least no moreso than an epiphany experienced by a shaman in the Amazon, a North Korean peasant, or an aboriginal medicine woman in Australia. Having said that, also want to say thanks, Prof. Pepperwinkle, for sticking this out and answering these questions. Even though it baffles me, it’s nice to have your perspective and candor and I’m glad you joined the board. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/291 "2013-06-19T13:29:56Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > You mean like the Fox and the Grapes? Is God the fox? Who are the grapes? Scratch that. The inclusion of some hackneyed morality tales in a disjointed, rambling amalgamation of history, law, the ramblings of a few madmen, and heavily borrowed mythology does not an ordered masterpiece make. The Fox and the Grapes is a moral fable, not an allegory, by the way. The fox and the grapes aren’t symbolic of other ideas. Disparaging sneers aside, Genesis may not be orderly, but it is a masterpiece. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/292 "2013-06-19T13:31:46Z")
> [@huck](#): > > I mean that particular bible passages and characterizing the bible as “intolerant” is beside the point since I am not a bible literalist. OK I get it. You like the pretty churches, you like thinking you will go to heaven, but you pretty much make up your religion as you go along, picking and choosing passages at will. You and the professor must be shopping at the same market. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/293 "2013-06-19T13:32:33Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > So basically you just poke around in the Bible as a hobby, gratified when you stumble across something relevant to your experience and blasé when you discover improbabilities and contradictions? No, I’ve worked at determining how to properly interpret the scriptures. I’ve read the histories and related texts. Did you come by your opinions through study and analysis, or did you just hear something you agreed with? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/294 "2013-06-19T13:35:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You started your research with one religion that was local to you…and stopped there. No, I started with that, then studied Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, comparative religion, Church history, hermeneutics, etc., etc. Because I’m using Presbyterianism as a base doesn’t mean I’m complacent. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/295 "2013-06-19T13:37:41Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The Fox and the Grapes is a moral fable, not an allegory, by the way. The fox and the grapes aren’t symbolic of other ideas. Disparaging sneers aside, Genesis may not be orderly, but it is a masterpiece. That’s my point. When contradictions occur or the facts claimed are just too preposterous to be believed, apologists claim “allegory”. The burning bush which spoke is allegorical, but a talking fox is a mere fable, right? Though I have a feeling that if a bumbling monk had erroneously included the Fox and the Grapes during transcription, said story would be promoted to allegory even in your eyes. Your revelation isn’t nearly as surprising as is your apparent Bibliolatry. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/296 "2013-06-19T13:39:41Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > “The Gospel According to Mark does not name its author.[2] A tradition evident in the 2nd century ascribes it to Mark the Evangelist (also known as John Mark), the companion of Peter,[10] on whose memories it is supposedly based.[1][11][12][13] However, according to the majority view, the author is unknown, the author’s use of varied sources telling against the traditional account.[14][15] The gospel was written in Greek, probably around AD 60-70, possibly in Syria.[7][16]” > > [Gospel of Mark - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark#Composition_and_setting) That information, however, is the consensus of modern scholarship, and so was unavailable to Luke, who, seeing a composition ascribed to Peter’s companion, would have been remiss if he didn’t use it. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/297 "2013-06-19T13:40:14Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Which is why I didn’t want to get into this discussion in the first place. I know my testimony of my experience is not sufficient to compel belief in others, and have said so from the outset. Mystical experiences are not provable by scientific means. Which is why I’m telling you that your mystical experience had no connection with the Bible. You said so yourself. Yet you are irrationally linking the two. Your mystical experience does not support the religion you post-hoc connected it too. Get it? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/298 "2013-06-19T13:42:55Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > No, I’d get to a doctor straightaway. Even if my apparent epiphany had a mystical flavor, I’d never be so egocentric as to entertain the idea that my unique existence warrants a tailored message from a god. At least no moreso than an epiphany experienced by a shaman in the Amazon, a North Korean peasant, or an aboriginal medicine woman in Australia. > > Having said that, also want to say thanks, Prof. Pepperwinkle, for sticking this out and answering these questions. Even though it baffles me, it’s nice to have your perspective and candor and I’m glad you joined the board. Thank you for your remarks, and, as it happens, I went to the doctor shortly afterwards, as my job required me to get a complete physical. For whatever reason (it’s been 25 years, I forget), that included a brain scan. Nothing abnormal. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/299 "2013-06-19T13:44:27Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Of course it does. It starts with Adam’s fall from grace. What’s your point? I don’t recall any mention of Adam’s free will in Genesis. Wasn’t Adam/Eve just acting as God had foreseen when He knowingly inserted the serpent in the Garden of Eden? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/300 "2013-06-19T13:45:33Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No, I’ve worked at determining how to properly interpret the scriptures. I’ve read the histories and related texts. Did you come by your opinions through study and analysis, or did you just hear something you agreed with? Study and analysis of facts and evidence. Though I do enjoy mythology as entertainment. I don’t discount the Bible as a primitive attempt at recording history and writing laws. And some of the stories are painterly even if plagarized. But I regard it wholey as any other agenda: the bias of the authors and translators removes the credibility. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=16)