# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/341 "2013-06-19T15:06:26Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Repeating, if it wasn’t for my experience I’d be agnostic or atheist. I agree there is a lack of evidence. UFO followers have had experiences too. Why don’t you give them the same benefit of the doubt you would wish we give you? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/342 "2013-06-19T15:08:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > …that was culturally most familiar to you. You’ve said previously that if you had lived elsewhere you might have attributed your experience to another deity. Since this experience convinced you of the authenticity of your regionally local god, does this mean that this experience happening to someone in another country would confirm the authenticity of other gods? Joseph Campbell has a great set of four volumes where he talks about this: “the Masks of God”. He sets forth the idea that God appears to people in a manner they will accept and can apprehend. So, to briefly answer your question, it’s the same God with a different face. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/343 "2013-06-19T15:10:45Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > We are talking about 60+ books written by different hands over three millenia… Uhmm not exactly. The oldest bits were written 2.500 years _ago_. It’s not the accumulated writings of over 3000 years. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/344 "2013-06-19T15:10:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are you actually going the “They’re all the same God using different methods” route? How hard did you really study other religions? What, you want a bibliography? Yes, I am going that route, with the note that human beings are imperfectly able to understand the nature of God and the divine, so it’s a lot like the blind men and the elephant. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/345 "2013-06-19T15:14:19Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > UFO followers have had experiences too. Why don’t you give them the same benefit of the doubt you would wish we give you? Great, one I can answer. UFO followers, at least from the 20th Century on, are making their claims against a background of established science theory (which, obviously, didn’t exist in the 1st Century AD), and therefore are required to provide better evidence than a blurry photo of an undetermined aircraft. If the scientific principle had been in use in the 1st Century AD, there’d be a much different discussion going on regarding Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/346 "2013-06-19T15:16:13Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Uhmm not exactly. The oldest bits were written 2.500 years _ago_. > It’s not the accumulated writings of over 3000 years. It’s over two millennia, therefore the writings took place over three millennia. It doesn’t have to include the entire 3,000 years. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/347 "2013-06-19T15:16:42Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, for the sake of argument, IF God has existed before the creation of the universe, and has existed throughout the entire universe in all time and space, and will continue to be after the universe ends, and created the universe, is omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent, IF all of that: do you really mean you can understand what God truly is when you are a finite human with a birth, a brief lifespan and a death in one small portion of the universe? What is the Limit of Man? What mountain can he not climb? What river can he not forge? What cell can hold him? The curiosity of Man is tool and weapon, limitless and unbound by god or devil. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/348 "2013-06-19T15:20:03Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Great, one I can answer. UFO followers, at least from the 20th Century on, are making their claims against a background of established science theory (which, obviously, didn’t exist in the 1st Century AD), and therefore are required to provide better evidence than a blurry photo of an undetermined aircraft. If the scientific principle had been in use in the 1st Century AD, there’d be a much different discussion going on regarding Jesus. So you would limit us to the evidence of the past _and_ the methods of the past to judge to past? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/349 "2013-06-19T15:22:51Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The burning bush? If it happened as stated in the Bible, I’d probably go with a revelation that looked like a hallucination to an outsider. But one that was of enough significance to Moses that it turned a stammering murderer-in-exile into the leader of his people. That was kind of a rhetorical question. Mustard and [gas plants](http://youtu.be/c8yDWkwu5aI?t=22s) contain volatile, flammable oils which, when mature, can burst into flame with the slightest spark. The slightest spark can be ignited by lightning, or a rolling flinty rock kicked off the mountain by a goat or sheep. Flammable, volatile plants occasionally catch on fire in the presence of the right conditions. You call those conditions God; I call them weather or botany. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > People with much worse physical and ethical problems have become great leaders. Can we attribute their successes to your god? Yeah, not a good idea to credit all military or financial success to divine intervention. > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Depends. Does their story call for them to be called forth by divine selection to lead their people? If so, maybe. Nearly every cult leader has made the same claim, yet I doubt you credit Smith, Koresh, Phelps, or Jeffs the same divine blessing. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/350 "2013-06-19T15:42:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What is the Limit of Man? What mountain can he not climb? What river can he not forge? What cell can hold him? The curiosity of Man is tool and weapon, limitless and unbound by god or devil. The limit of man? about 120 years. What mountain can he not climb? one on a planet in another solar system. What river can he not forge? (ford?) undersea rivers. What cell can hold him? a cancer cell The curiosity and imagination of Man ARE great things, but God’s scope [as stated in the previous post) is beyond infinite. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/351 "2013-06-19T15:44:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So you would limit us to the evidence of the past _and_ the methods of the past to judge to past? Not the methods of the past, no. If the past is to be judged, and there is nothing but the evidence of the past to judge, then that pretty much limits it right there. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/352 "2013-06-19T15:45:06Z")
This thread is very old yet I find it very interesting. People have been helped by the Divine all thought the ages. It is fascinating reading. I find most interesting the experiences that just happened when least expected. I have read many of them and experience some of them myself. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/353 "2013-06-19T15:48:18Z")
> [@](#): > > The burning bush? If it happened as stated in the Bible, I’d probably go with a revelation that looked like a hallucination to an outsider. But one that was of enough significance to Moses that it turned a stammering murderer-in-exile into the leader of his people. > > That was kind of a rhetorical question. Mustard and gas plants contain volatile, flammable oils which, when mature, can burst into flame with the slightest spark. The slightest spark can be ignited by lightning, or a rolling flinty rock kicked off the mountain by a goat or sheep. Flammable, volatile plants occasionally catch on fire in the presence of the right conditions. You call those conditions God; I call them weather or botany. The miraculous part mentioned in the OT is that the bush didn’t burn. Maybe it simply didn’t seem to burn to Moses to call his attention to it. > [@](#): > > Czarcasm > People with much worse physical and ethical problems have become great leaders. Can we attribute their successes to your god? > > Yeah, not a good idea to credit all military or financial success to divine intervention. Agreed. I’d put it on a case-by-case basis and even then I wouldn’t want that task. > [@](#): > > Prof. Pepperwinkle > Depends. Does their story call for them to be called forth by divine selection to lead their people? If so, maybe. > > Nearly every cult leader has made the same claim, yet I doubt you credit Smith, Koresh, Phelps, or Jeffs the same divine blessing. Supra. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/354 "2013-06-19T15:51:16Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The limit of man? about 120 years. > What mountain can he not climb? one on a planet in another solar system. > What river can he not forge? (ford?) undersea rivers. > What cell can hold him? a cancer cell > The curiosity and imagination of Man ARE great things, but God’s scope [as stated in the previous post) is beyond infinite. Given time, we can do any of those things…and it probably won’t take an eternity to do it, either. Does blind faith in the unseen actually require you to dismiss all previous evidence-supported faith in the seen? As I’ve said before, looking at what we’ve done in the short time we’ve been, how can you even imagine what we are capable of given a mere 5 or 10 million years? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/355 "2013-06-19T15:55:35Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The miraculous part mentioned in the OT is that the bush didn’t burn. Maybe it simply didn’t seem to burn to Moses to call his attention to it. There’s no miracle to it. The plants don’t disintegrate; once the extrememly volatile methane has quickly burned off the moist, green plant does not provide fuel for the fire. Watch this short video: [http://youtu.be/c8yDWkwu5aI?t=10s](http://youtu.be/c8yDWkwu5aI?t=10s) ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/356 "2013-06-19T15:57:01Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > There’s no miracle to it. The plants don’t disintegrate; once the extrememly volatile methane has quickly burned off the moist, green plant does not provide fuel for the fire. Watch this short video: [http://youtu.be/c8yDWkwu5aI?t=10s](http://youtu.be/c8yDWkwu5aI?t=10s) Wow! If you do it right, you can learn something new every day. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/357 "2013-06-19T15:58:17Z")
There are two things an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent god cannot experience: Progress and Loss. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/358 "2013-06-19T16:01:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Given time, we can do any of those things…and it probably won’t take an eternity to do it, either. Does blind faith in the unseen actually require you to dismiss all previous evidence-supported faith in the seen? As I’ve said before, looking at what we’ve done in the short time we’ve been, how can you even imagine what we are capable of given a mere 5 or 10 million years? What makes you think mankind will last 5 or 10 million years? As far as I can tell from scientific websites, we’ve been around about 200,000-250,000 years now, and, between nuclear weapons and climate change we’ve severely threatened our own existence for the next few centuries. So same question as with the previous post, but it is posed to you as you are today, and not a human in the distant future: how can you understand something that is technically beyond the limits of your knowledge and senses well enough to judge it? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/359 "2013-06-19T16:03:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > There are two things an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent god cannot experience: Progress and Loss. Unless he incarnates as a human being, and then he can experience anything we can. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/360 "2013-06-19T16:09:06Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > So same question as with the previous post, but it is posed to you as you are today, and not a human in the distant future: how can you understand something that is technically beyond the limits of your knowledge and senses well enough to judge it? Not knowing something is a piss-poor excuse not to try to find out, and limiting us to only judging that which we have a complete understanding of is asking far too much. I have the right to judge according to my own standards, and hopefully the wisdom to adjust my thinking when new evidence presents itself. “You don’t know me-you can’t judge me!” is something you expect to hear from a spoiled teenager throwing a tantrum, not a supposedly superior god. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=19)