# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/361 "2013-06-19T16:12:52Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I know my testimony of my experience is not sufficient to compel belief in others, and have said so from the outset. Mystical experiences are not provable by scientific means. > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No, I don’t disagree. Miracles are irrational and scientifically can’t be accepted, UNLESS IT HAPPENS TO YOU. I’m glad you realize that your mystical experience won’t convince _us_ that it was due to a god, but what I can’t figure out is why it would convince _you_? Given that you had an experience where you heard a song and there was no one around to be singing it, I would just hafta think that a god being responsible is about the _least_ likely explanation I could possibly come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/362 "2013-06-19T16:14:01Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Unless he incarnates as a human being, and then he can experience anything we can. I thought you followed Mark? He was more of a “Jesus _became_ the Son Of God” person than a “Jesus was _born_ the Son Of God” person, I believe. Leaving that aside, I doubt very much that at any time the god that put his avatar on Earth felt actual loss or progress. He knew that no harm could come to his avatar. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/363 "2013-06-19T16:16:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not knowing something is a piss-poor excuse not to try to find out, and limiting us to only judging that which we have a complete understanding of is asking far too much. I have the right to judge according to my own standards, and hopefully the wisdom to adjust my thinking when new evidence presents itself. “You don’t know me-you can’t judge me!” is something you expect to hear from a spoiled teenager throwing a tantrum, not a supposedly superior god. I’m not asking for complete understanding. I just don’t think you can judge a train by looking at railroad tracks. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/364 "2013-06-19T16:17:52Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > I’m glad you realize that your mystical experience won’t convince _us_ that it was due to a god, but what I can’t figure out is why it would convince _you_? > > Given that you had an experience where you heard a song and there was no one around to be singing it, I would just hafta think that a god being responsible is about the _least_ likely explanation I could possibly come up with. Okay, it’s a personal experience and YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/365 "2013-06-19T16:23:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I thought you followed Mark? He was more of a “Jesus _became_ the Son Of God” person than a “Jesus was _born_ the Son Of God” person, I believe. Leaving that aside, I doubt very much that at any time the god that put his avatar on Earth felt actual loss or progress. He knew that no harm could come to his avatar. Agreed that Mark points toward adoptionism rather than the virgin birth and John’s doctrine of Jesus as coeval with God. I do favor that position. His sense of loss was directed more toward friends and towards the nation of Israel. The shortest verse in the KJV, from John 11:35: “Jesus wept.” It is recorded that he felt frustation at the thickness of his disciples, sorrow at the death of friends and anger at the moneychangers. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/366 "2013-06-19T16:23:46Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Wow! If you do it right, you can learn something new every day. Thank you! Similarly we bear no disdain against flat earth champions whose experience was limited by their sailing ability. And I’m sure some Katrina victims would have believed the world was drowning if not for televsion. Thing is, floods of Biblical proportion, burning bushes, and resurrections make for good press. But we’ve made such leaps of progress in medicine and science that it’s unlikely that a [cornstarch monster](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kevqQHZSeao)or dead patients who woke up in the morgue will be attributed to God 2,000 years in the future. I’ll concede that a burning, living plant is a weird phenomenon and that a dude in flux might just ascribe certain… otherworldly properties to such an event. But with that assumption comes the sense of entitlement that one is especially privy to Insider knowledge while Shriner’s fills to bursting with cancer-ridden kids. Why you, and not them? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/367 "2013-06-19T16:27:44Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Similarly we bear no disdain against flat earth champions whose experience was limited by their sailing ability. And I’m sure some Katrina victims would have believed the world was drowning if not for televsion. Thing is, floods of Biblical proportion, burning bushes, and resurrections make for good press. But we’ve made such leaps of progress in medicine and science that it’s unlikely that a [cornstarch monster](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kevqQHZSeao)or dead patients who woke up in the morgue will be attributed to God 2,000 years in the future. > > I’ll concede that a burning, living plant is a weird phenomenon and that a dude in flux might just ascribe certain… otherworldly properties to such an event. But with that assumption comes the sense of entitlement that one is especially privy to Insider knowledge while Shriner’s fills to bursting with cancer-ridden kids. Why you, and not them? Again, I have not a clue. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/368 "2013-06-19T16:31:46Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I’m not asking for complete understanding. I just don’t think you can judge a train by looking at railroad tracks. No..but I can surmise that there isn’t any train if the tracks aren’t even there. Now, there may very well be a train that doesn’t require tracks, but would you call my initial conclusion a great jump in logic, or just a reasonable assumption? I think I am reasonable in judging gods by what little we know of them, and since there is no hard evidence to examine all I’ve got to go on is thousands of years of other people without hard evidence describing the actions, attributions and emotions of those same gods, I judge them accordingly. I do not have to consider evidence that you claim no one can obtain or understand-what a silly thing to demand. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/369 "2013-06-19T16:34:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No..but I can surmise that there isn’t any train if the tracks aren’t even there. Now, there may very well be a train that doesn’t require tracks, but would you call my initial conclusion a great jump in logic, or just a reasonable assumption? I think I am reasonable in judging gods by what little we know of them, and since there is no hard evidence to examine all I’ve got to go on is thousands of years of other people without hard evidence describing the actions, attributions and emotions of those same gods, I judge them accordingly. I do not have to consider evidence that you claim no one can obtain or understand-what a silly thing to demand. So if you chose to judge God would you judge only God as represented in the Bible, or would you have opinions on each facet of God as revealed through different faiths? Or is that to be dismissed as a mere waste of time? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/370 "2013-06-19T16:34:58Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Agreed that Mark points toward adoptionism rather than the virgin birth and John’s doctrine of Jesus as coeval with God. I do favor that position. His sense of loss was directed more toward friends and towards the nation of Israel. The shortest verse in the KJV, from John 11:35: “Jesus wept.” It is recorded that he felt frustation at the thickness of his disciples, sorrow at the death of friends and anger at the moneychangers. The avatar is not the object. Did the god that still ran the universe while his avatar was on Earth feel any loss? He supposedly knew exactly what was going to happen, and that everything that happened was exactly as he wanted it to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/371 "2013-06-19T16:36:44Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The shortest verse in the KJV, from John 11:35: “Jesus wept.” It is recorded that he felt frustation at the thickness of his disciples, sorrow at the death of friends and anger at the moneychangers. We would do well to remember that only poetry is written in verse. The writers of the books that constitute the bible did not break them into verses. That was done by later people and is entirely arbitrary. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/372 "2013-06-19T16:36:47Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > So if you chose to judge God would you judge only God as represented in the Bible, or would you have opinions on each facet of God as revealed through different faiths? Or is that to be dismissed as a mere waste of time? Since I don’t buy the ego-driven “They are all really the god _I_ follow” premise, I don’t have to go that route. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/373 "2013-06-19T16:36:47Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Again, I have not a clue. Well, if it must be you then instead of them… you seem like a thoughtful, intelligent, and warm human being and I hope you’ll use your experience to the betterment of the lives of others rather than to justify exclusion, predatory behavior, slavery, or any of the various and sundry horrors committed in God’s name over the millennia. So if you have some power to influence your Presbyterian: run with it, Man. Make good on your hunch and spread that love. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/374 "2013-06-19T16:41:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The avatar is not the object. Did the god that still ran the universe while his avatar was on Earth feel any loss? He supposedly knew exactly what was going to happen, and that everything that happened was exactly as he wanted it to happen. So an omniscient deity who has a human incarnation is incapable of feeling and comprehending the emotions of its incarnation? Granted, God existed separately but the idea that Christ fully represents humanity to God and God to humanity isn’t a new one. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/375 "2013-06-19T16:46:32Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Well, if it must be you then instead of them… you seem like a thoughtful, intelligent, and warm human being and I hope you’ll use your experience to the betterment of the lives of others rather than to justify exclusion, predatory behavior, slavery, or any of the various and sundry horrors committed in God’s name over the millennia. So if you have some power to influence your Presbyterian: run with it, Man. Make good on your hunch and spread that love. Thanks again. As I mentioned, one of the reasons I went with the Presbyterians is that they have an active social agenda: food pantries (for each neighborhood, not just members of the church), help with clothing, legal advise, medical bills, etc. This thread evolved off another where the poor treatment of LGBT in the church was assumed to be universal, and I chimed it to note that Presbyterians have been having discussions on the subject for 20+ years, and that there are ordained openly gay Presbyterian ministers. I’ve also been able to convince a number of people over the years of the reality of evolution, climate change as being humanly created, and that good honest doubt isn’t a bad thing. Enough bragging, though. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/376 "2013-06-19T17:24:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The avatar is not the object. Did the god that still ran the universe while his avatar was on Earth feel any loss? You should know better than to bring up avatars on the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/377 "2013-06-19T17:28:57Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > You should know better than to bring up avatars on the SDMB. Oops. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/378 "2013-06-19T17:29:13Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > This thread evolved off another where the poor treatment of LGBT in the church was assumed to be universal, and I chimed it to note that Presbyterians have been having discussions on the subject for 20+ years, and that there are ordained openly gay Presbyterian ministers. That’s very progressive that Presbyterians don’t require ministers to repent from what the Bible calls abominations. What’s the Presbyterian (and your) stand on sex workers, porn stars and regular folks who like to openly have sex outside of marriage? Can they all become ministers in the Presbyterian church? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/379 "2013-06-19T17:42:11Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That’s very progressive that Presbyterians don’t require ministers to repent from what the Bible calls abominations. What’s the Presbyterian (and your) stand on sex workers, porn stars and regular folks who like to openly have sex outside of marriage? Can they all become ministers in the Presbyterian church? Ah, back to that, eh? Off topic, and already answered. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/380 "2013-06-19T17:46:04Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Ah, back to that, eh? Off topic, and already answered. This is my topic. I understand why you don’t want to share your thoughts though as we both know you really aren’t that progressive. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=20)