# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/401 "2013-06-20T02:58:47Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The curiosity and imagination of Man ARE great things, but God’s scope [as stated in the previous post) is beyond infinite. No, I think God’s scope only goes as far as man’s imagination. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/402 "2013-06-20T02:59:15Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > OK, but you said yourself that you don’t know they were miracles, you just say you heard a song. I set my bar a little higher with regards to miracles. So does Malthus who says he shared a similar experience: > > Maybe we all need to get on the same page with regards to what a miracle is. I’ll go with Mystic Experience. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/403 "2013-06-20T03:02:04Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > If you didn’t understand the message, how do you know you came to the right conclusion? I didn’t understand the words. I understood the message. Do you understand the idea of immanence or divine awe? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/404 "2013-06-20T03:03:51Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So a bunch of stories that sound fake make you not think it’s literally true? What do you do with NT miracles like multiplying fishes, turning water into wine, walking or water, rising from the dead, etc? > > Could you give an estimate of what percent of Bible miracles you think are real vs fake? And we get further and further off topic. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/405 "2013-06-20T03:08:04Z")
> [@huck](#): > > Ok, sure. I don’t know what this has to do with your original question, how you would know that (or why you would suspect it in light of what I’ve already said) but let’s just say that this supernatural insight of yours is correct. > > What’s so bad about that? Prejudice, guilt, wasted opportunities and resources. > [@](#): > > If it makes me more tolerant, more able and inclined to work for justice and the benefit of the needy and happier, what’s the problem? That you need a myth about an afterlife scenario to make you all those things. I think that’s a problem. > [@](#): > > I am genuinely curious as to why someone who does not believe in God, even someone who is angry about the political and social influence of the religious right (I am too), would devote so much energy to disparaging religious beliefs of tolerant Christians or any other denomination for that matter. If I’m not mistaken you support faith and you support Christianity in general. Both of those things you support are used to justify those things even you admit you are angry about regarding the religious right. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/406 "2013-06-20T03:08:51Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Really? Cause when I read the Gospels Jesus is doing a whole lot of talk about how God’s going to make you pay, big time, if you don’t love him enough. You disagree? Sure I disagree. > [@](#): > > I think it is easy to comprehend that the Christian god is going to hurt you real bad if you don’t love him and only him. Isn’t that what the Bible teaches in both Old Testament and New? Not as much in the OT as you seem to think, and much less in the NT. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/407 "2013-06-20T03:09:48Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, the creator of the universe, not limited by time or physicality, omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. OK, I can comprehend that pretty easy. Twas taught to me as a child and I got it right away. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/408 "2013-06-20T03:10:16Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > No, I think God’s scope only goes as far as man’s imagination. You think God is somehow dependent on man? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/409 "2013-06-20T03:10:51Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > With the exception of the Marcionists, I’m not familiar with any Jewish or Christian sect or denomination that wouldn’t include all five books of the Torah in the OT. So Leviticus is the word of God? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/410 "2013-06-20T03:12:43Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > OK, I can comprehend that pretty easy. Twas taught to me as a child and I got it right away. Really? What was God doing before he created the universe? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/411 "2013-06-20T03:13:53Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > So Leviticus is the word of God? Before I step into a trap, what do you mean by “the word of God”? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/412 "2013-06-20T03:16:44Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I said God knows the choices we will make. As long as they are OUR choices, we have free will. If your choices are all made ahead of time, and you can’t them, how is the will free? > [@](#): > > By which I mean, and, frankly I thought it was obvious, that I meant intellectually satisfying after consider study, since that what I’ve been saying all along. On the subject of predestination, what does Calvin say that is wrong? > [@](#): > > You have a minority viewpoint. But not the illogical or non-biblical viewpoint. > [@](#): > > Once more with feeling: there’s a general spiritual call to all mankind, and then there are particular, specific calls. The apostles were in a position distinct in time and place, and that’s the call Ephesians is referring to. So that part Paul said about some people getting grace and some people God makes refuse to listen isn’t true? > [@](#): > > No, I’m for free will. Why? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/413 "2013-06-20T03:20:25Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I didn’t understand the words. I understood the message. Do you understand the idea of immanence or divine awe? Maybe, what was so awesome about a song? Couldn’t some sort of seizure cause that? Couldn’t aliens if they were advanced enough cause that? Are other alternatives literally impossible? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/414 "2013-06-20T03:21:55Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > And we get further and further off topic. I know. It’s unpleasant to discuss inconsistencies in one’s reasoning. You mentioned all them OT miracles you don’t believe in. I was just following your lead. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/415 "2013-06-20T03:23:05Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Before I step into a trap, what do you mean by “the word of God”? The god described in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/416 "2013-06-20T12:33:05Z")
> [@](#): > > I said God knows the choices we will make. As long as they are OUR choices, we have free will. > > If your choices are all made ahead of time, and you can’t them, how is the will free? The choices are not made ahead of time, they are made in time. God being outside of time is not subject to this human limitation. Ever read _Flatland_? > [@](#): > > By which I mean, and, frankly I thought it was obvious, that I meant intellectually satisfying after consider study, since that what I’ve been saying all along. > > On the subject of predestination, what does Calvin say that is wrong? To put it very briefly, it doesn’t put enough stock in the idea of God’s grace. > [@](#): > > Once more with feeling: there’s a general spiritual call to all mankind, and then there are particular, specific calls. The apostles were in a position distinct in time and place, and that’s the call Ephesians is referring to. > > So that part Paul said about some people getting grace and some people God makes refuse to listen isn’t true? That question is unrelated to this passage. However, it is scriptural. > [@](#): > > No, I’m for free will. > > Why? Because I make numerous choices every day. Because free will is necessary for any sense of purpose in life. Because I am not a puppet. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/417 "2013-06-20T12:34:13Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Maybe, what was so awesome about a song? Couldn’t some sort of seizure cause that? Couldn’t aliens if they were advanced enough cause that? Are other alternatives literally impossible? It was not the song per se, it was the sense of presence with the divine. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/418 "2013-06-20T12:36:12Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Because I make numerous choices every day. Because free will is necessary for any sense of purpose in life. Because I am not a puppet. Does your god know what I will do tomorrow? If so, and he decides to tell me what I will do tomorrow, can I do something different, or will I go through the motions like a puppet on a string? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/419 "2013-06-20T12:36:38Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > The god described in the Bible. So: Is Leviticus the word of God, as described in Leviticus? Yes, it’s a circular definition. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/420 "2013-06-20T12:41:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does your god know what I will do tomorrow? If so, and he decides to tell me what I will do tomorrow, can I do something different, or will I go through the motions like a puppet on a string? Good morning. Being outside of time, yes, he does. If you watch a movie repeatedly, do you know what’s going to happen next? And if, in that movie, you see yourself telling an actor what’s going to happen, and the movie continues with the actor doing exactly that, is he just a puppet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=22)