# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/421 "2013-06-20T12:43:30Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Good morning. Being outside of time, yes, he does. If you watch a movie repeatedly, do you know what’s going to happen next? And if, in that movie, you see yourself telling an actor what’s going to happen, and the movie continues with the actor doing exactly that, is he just a puppet? Um…yes. An actor has no free will…she is just playing the part as scripted and directed. edited to add: If it’s just a script that cannot change, then _whatever_ I do is done by the author, not me. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/422 "2013-06-20T12:56:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Um…yes. An actor has no free will…she is just playing the part as scripted and directed. > edited to add: If it’s just a script that cannot change, then _whatever_ I do is done by the author, not me. Okay, the analogy has flaws. What if you’re watching Improv? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/423 "2013-06-20T12:59:44Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, the analogy has flaws. What if you’re watching Improv? Does not apply-the people in the audience only throw in suggestions and have no idea what the actors will do with those suggestions. How about a direct answer to my question in post #418 instead of these flawed analogies? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/424 "2013-06-20T13:07:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does not apply-the people in the audience only throw in suggestions and have no idea what the actors will do with those suggestions. > How about a direct answer to my question in post #418 instead of these flawed analogies? I had in mind you watching a film of an Improv, but misspoke. Okay, yes he knows. No, you’d do it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/425 "2013-06-20T13:09:37Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I had in mind you watching a film of an Improv, but misspoke. > Okay, yes he knows. No, you’d do it anyway. Like a puppet on a string? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/426 "2013-06-20T13:11:31Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The choices are not made ahead of time, they are made in time. God being outside of time is not subject to this human limitation. Ever read _Flatland_? If God knows ahead of time you are going to hell, can you change your fate and go to heaven? You don’t think god interferes with peoples choices? Not ever? > [@](#): > > To put it very briefly, it doesn’t put enough stock in the idea of God’s grace. What do you mean by that? I thought Calvin taught that people are saved by grace alone. > [@](#): > > That question is unrelated to this passage. However, it is scriptural. It’s one of the passages I quoted. If God makes some people refuse to listen, it really sounds to me like he is getting in the way of free choice. You don’t think so? > [@](#): > > Because I make numerous choices every day. Because free will is necessary for any sense of purpose in life. Because I am not a puppet. Can’t you see that each of your choices results from something else? Why do you think you need free will to have purpose? Don’t think of yourself as a puppet, maybe think of yourself as a highly advanced biological organism obeying the laws of physics and causality, or playing the part laid out for you by and all sovereign God. Maybe read Harris’ free will book before the other ones. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/427 "2013-06-20T13:12:32Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > It was not the song per se, it was the sense of presence with the divine. You mean you really didn’t hear a song? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/428 "2013-06-20T13:14:28Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > So: Is Leviticus the word of God, as described in Leviticus? Yes, it’s a circular definition. What? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/429 "2013-06-20T13:14:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Like a puppet on a string? No, like a person with free will who chooses to act of his own volition, but in accord with what God told him. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/430 "2013-06-20T13:14:40Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I had in mind you watching a film of an Improv, but misspoke. BTW, you are supposed to give a direct answer _first_, then use analogies if the direct answer isn’t understood. When an analogy is used first, it is usually because the person using it is trying to avoid the unpleasantness the direct answer might bring. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/431 "2013-06-20T13:15:56Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No, like a person with free will who chooses to act of his own volition, but in accord with what God told him. But you just said that there is NO choice-we WILL do what your god says we will do. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/432 "2013-06-20T13:23:17Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No, like a person with free will who chooses to act of his own volition, but in accord with what God told him. Oh, I get it. You mean that people have free will to do what God determines. That doesn’t sound very free to me. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/433 "2013-06-20T13:28:53Z")
> [@](#): > > The choices are not made ahead of time, they are made in time. God being outside of time is not subject to this human limitation. Ever read Flatland? > > If God knows ahead of time you are going to hell, can you change your fate and go to heaven? You don’t think god interferes with peoples choices? Not ever? Okay, you haven’t read Flatland. No. Not usually. On rare occasions for reasons I do not know. > [@](#): > > To put it very briefly, it doesn’t put enough stock in the idea of God’s grace. > > What do you mean by that? I thought Calvin taught that people are saved by grace alone. Yes, in Calvinism, since there is no free will, salvation only comes to those that God has given his grace, and preordained to be saved. It determines that humanity is totally depraved and is incapable of the choice to accept God’s grace on its own. This is one of the places where the majority of Christians differ with Calvinism. > [@](#): > > That question is unrelated to this passage. However, it is scriptural. > > It’s one of the passages I quoted. If God makes some people refuse to listen, it really sounds to me like he is getting in the way of free choice. You don’t think so? For some people, yes, see above. > [@](#): > > Because I make numerous choices every day. Because free will is necessary for any sense of purpose in life. Because I am not a puppet. > > Can’t you see that each of your choices results from something else? Why do you think you need free will to have purpose? Don’t think of yourself as a puppet, maybe think of yourself as a highly advanced biological organism obeying the laws of physics and causality, or playing the part laid out for you by and all sovereign God. Maybe read Harris’ free will book before the other ones. Spontaneity doesn’t appeal to you at all, does it? Without free will I do not have power to choose and am a biological robot. I will most likely get around to Harris’s Free Will, but I’ll read his Letter first, since I have it now. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/434 "2013-06-20T13:29:56Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You mean you really didn’t hear a song? Yes, I heard a song. The words of the song didn’t matter, it was the immanent presence of God that was the convincing part. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/435 "2013-06-20T13:39:08Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But you just said that there is NO choice-we WILL do what your god says we will do. Your original question was: Does your god know what I will do tomorrow? If so, and he decides to tell me what I will do tomorrow, can I do something different, or will I go through the motions like a puppet on a string? If God directly tells you what you will do, this will be an extemely unusual event. He would have his own reasons for telling you, and, given the fact that you’ve suddenly had an encounter with an arguably superior intelligence, you would then come to the conclusion you had better act in accordance with his wishes. If he tells you you have a heart problem and you will go see your doctor tomorrow, why would you do otherwise? Out of spite? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/436 "2013-06-20T13:55:54Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, you haven’t read Flatland. Is Flatland that story where the circle is picked up out of the page and becomes a 3D object? > [@](#): > > No. Not usually. On rare occasions for reasons I do not know. Calvinists have a number of Bible verses that say otherwise. Them verses are all wrong? > [@](#): > > Yes, in Calvinism, since there is no free will, salvation only comes to those that God has given his grace, and preordained to be saved. It determines that humanity is totally depraved and is incapable of the choice to accept God’s grace on its own. This is one of the places where the majority of Christians differ with Calvinism. Have you read much about Calvinism? They cite Bible verses that say all of that. Some of which I have already cited. > [@](#): > > For some people, yes, see above. So some people get free will and some don’t? Like Jacob and Essau? Which one was the free one? > [@](#): > > Spontaneity doesn’t appeal to you at all, does it? Sure it does. Can you give me an example of a spontaneous act that does not have prior causes or stimuli? > [@](#): > > Without free will I do not have power to choose and am a biological robot. You can still choose, your choice is just determined rather than free. You’re a biological robot whether you like it or not. You might be able to make better choices in the future if you accept it. I’m giving you stimuli to help you with that. > [@](#): > > I will most likely get around to Harris’s Free Will, but I’ll read his Letter first, since I have it now. That should go quick. The Free Will book was better IMO, as was The Moral Landscape. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/437 "2013-06-20T13:57:50Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Yes, I heard a song. The words of the song didn’t matter, it was the immanent presence of God that was the convincing part. You saw this god? Was able to touch him? You said before it was angels not a god. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/438 "2013-06-20T14:00:27Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > If God directly tells you what you will do, this will be an extemely unusual event. He would have his own reasons for telling you, and, given the fact that you’ve suddenly had an encounter with an arguably superior intelligence, you would then come to the conclusion you had better act in accordance with his wishes. Like Jonah and the whale, Abraham and Andrea Yates? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/439 "2013-06-20T14:09:05Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Your original question was: > Does your god know what I will do tomorrow? If so, and he decides to tell me what I will do tomorrow, can I do something different, or will I go through the motions like a puppet on a string? > > If God directly tells you what you will do, this will be an extemely unusual event. He would have his own reasons for telling you, and, given the fact that you’ve suddenly had an encounter with an arguably superior intelligence, you would then come to the conclusion you had better act in accordance with his wishes. If he tells you you have a heart problem and you will go see your doctor tomorrow, why would you do otherwise? Out of spite? Let’s try a direct answer that doesn’t have special conditions for an out(“heart attack” indeed :rolleyes:), o.k.? If God told me that I was going to watch one television show tomorrow, would I be able to choose another television show instead, or will I be a prisoner in my own body as he forces me to pick up the remote and watch the show he foretold I would watch? Edited to add: I’m not asking if I _should_ do what he said I would do-I am asking whether I would _have to_ do what he said I would do. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/440 "2013-06-20T14:20:19Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > If God directly tells you what you will do, this will be an extemely unusual event. Why? If he is real and omnipotent and all loving and all that. If it’s all true, why would this be such an anusual occurence? If it were all true you would expect him to pop in daily, just to say hi. Wouldn’t he at least drop by when you needed real actual help? At the very very very least he could have left a book of instructions that was actually clear about stuff. Why is it that he will only communicate to 1 in 100.000 people? It’s not very nice of him, now is it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=23)