# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/441 "2013-06-20T14:33:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Like a puppet on a string? You are a free agent with choice. You can do bad things or good things depending on you entirely. God does not need to know your immediate future, but does know your ultimate future. There is a condition called by many different names that will keep you on the right path no matter how many times you wander off. This condition is very simple: whatever you do will return to you. Over the years and reincarnations everyone will finally “get” it. So the better you are returns to you also until you reach the final goal which is unconditional love which is better known as God to those that make it. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/442 "2013-06-20T14:34:19Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That’s very progressive that Presbyterians don’t require ministers to repent from what the Bible calls abominations. What’s the Presbyterian (and your) stand on sex workers, porn stars and regular folks who like to openly have sex outside of marriage? Can they all become ministers in the Presbyterian church? In my distant past, I was privileged to use a Presby. church for a few years. The minister was a man who was struggling with his own loss of faith and who spoke openly from the pulpit about his struggle. He felt he was destined to continue doing all the ‘good’ things one expects from a minister, but he wondered if it was necessary to believe in all the tenets of the ‘Faith’ in order for his work to be effective. I don’t know how that worked out for him. I do know that his struggle reflected the issues raised here concerning ‘bad things happening randomly and to good people’…that sort of argument. Not mentioned before, I don’t think, that church had a very active ‘prison’ ministry, providing spiritual and physical help for prisoners and ex-prisoners, some of which was very effective. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/443 "2013-06-20T14:37:28Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > You are a free agent with choice. You can do bad things or good things depending on you entirely. God does not need to know your immediate future, but does know your ultimate future. There is a condition called by many different names that will keep you on the right path no matter how many times you wander off. This condition is very simple: whatever you do will return to you. Over the years and reincarnations everyone will finally “get” it. So the better you are returns to you also until you reach the final goal which is unconditional love which is better known as God to those that make it. Goo goo g’joob. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/444 "2013-06-20T15:17:53Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, you haven’t read Flatland. > > Is Flatland that story where the circle is picked up out of the page and becomes a 3D object? Yes. We are creatures in 4 dimensions. God is beyond that. > [@](#): > > No. Not usually. On rare occasions for reasons I do not know. > > Calvinists have a number of Bible verses that say otherwise. Them verses are all wrong? Theirs is not the only opinion, nor ever the majority opinion, and has been increasingly less so since the mid-19th Century. > [@](#): > > Yes, in Calvinism, since there is no free will, salvation only comes to those that God has given his grace, and preordained to be saved. It determines that humanity is totally depraved and is incapable of the choice to accept God’s grace on its own. This is one of the places where the majority of Christians differ with Calvinism. > > Have you read much about Calvinism? They cite Bible verses that say all of that. Some of which I have already cited. Yes, and many other -isms. See above. > [@](#): > > For some people, yes, see above. > > So some people get free will and some don’t? Like Jacob and Essau? Which one was the free one? Biblically, it’s usually heads of state whose hearts are hardened. For Jacob and Esau the whole concept revolves around the fact that they are twins whose future was predetermined by birth order, and therefore who would inherit. The phrase in Romans that God says “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have rejected” is based on their actions after birth, not before. > [@](#): > > Spontaneity doesn’t appeal to you at all, does it? > > Sure it does. Can you give me an example of a spontaneous act that does not have prior causes or stimuli? See below. > [@](#): > > Without free will I do not have power to choose and am a biological robot. > > You can still choose, your choice is just determined rather than free. You’re a biological robot whether you like it or not. You might be able to make better choices in the future if you accept it. I’m giving you stimuli to help you with that. Okay, I’ll have to read more on determinism before I can answer that. There’s a level of scientific inquiry here I am not familiar with, and I do not like to argue from a point of ignorance where there is information available. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/445 "2013-06-20T15:18:57Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > You saw this god? Was able to touch him? You said before it was angels not a god. Didn’t see anything, heard. Experienced his presence through the angels’ song. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/446 "2013-06-20T15:22:06Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Like Jonah and the whale, Abraham and Andrea Yates? Um, Jonah chose to run, and look where it got him. Abraham, sure. Andrea Yates was declared certifiably insane, and I have never said that every claim of mystical experiences are genuine. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/447 "2013-06-20T15:25:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let’s try a direct answer that doesn’t have special conditions for an out(“heart attack” indeed :rolleyes:), o.k.? If God told me that I was going to watch one television show tomorrow, would I be able to choose another television show instead, or will I be a prisoner in my own body as he forces me to pick up the remote and watch the show he foretold I would watch? Edited to add: I’m not asking if I _should_ do what he said I would do-I am asking whether I would _have to_ do what he said I would do. Yes, being omnipotent, God could make you do what he says. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/448 "2013-06-20T15:30:46Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Yes, being omnipotent, God could make you do what he says. “Could” make?? Look-if you don’t want to answer the damn question because the answer might harm your cause, then just refuse to answer it, but _please_ stop with these obfuscations. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/449 "2013-06-20T15:31:54Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Why? > > If he is real and omnipotent and all loving and all that. > If it’s all true, why would this be such an anusual occurence? > > If it were all true you would expect him to pop in daily, just to say hi. > Wouldn’t he at least drop by when you needed real actual help? > > At the very very very least he could have left a book of instructions that was actually clear about stuff. > > Why is it that he will only communicate to 1 in 100.000 people? > It’s not very nice of him, now is it? Okay, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God, not bounded by time or physical limitations, creator of the universe, and you want him to move and act in accordance with your expectations? Psalms 8:4: what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them? 5 You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor. 6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet. That’s not being exceedingly generous as it is? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/450 "2013-06-20T15:37:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “Could” make?? > Look-if you don’t want to answer the damn question because the answer might harm your cause, then just refuse to answer it, but _please_ stop with these obfuscations. Yes, being omnipotent, God can make you do what he says. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/451 "2013-06-20T15:44:40Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Yes, being omnipotent, God can make you do what he says. Re-read this, then try your best to answer the question that is asked, _which has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with what your god might choose to do_: > [@](#): > > If God told me that I was going to watch one television show tomorrow, would I be able to choose another television show instead, or will I be a prisoner in my own body as he forces me to pick up the remote and watch the show he foretold I would watch? Edited to add: I’m not asking if I should do what he said I would do-I am asking whether I would have to do what he said I would do. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/452 "2013-06-20T16:25:53Z")
I don’t want to get in the middle of this discussion (because I can see where it has led - even though I have had my own encounters with the divine), but I’m not entirely sure how you could possibly perceive that your question hasn’t been answered. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/453 "2013-06-20T16:40:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Re-read this, then try your best to answer the question that is asked, _which has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with what your god might choose to do_: > > If God told me that I was going to watch one television show tomorrow, would I be able to choose another television show instead, or will I be a prisoner in my own body as he forces me to pick up the remote and watch the show he foretold I would watch? Edited to add: I’m not asking if I should do what he said I would do-I am asking whether I would have to do what he said I would do. You would have to do what he said you would do. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/454 "2013-06-20T16:41:47Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I don’t want to get in the middle of this discussion (because I can see where it has led - even though I have had my own encounters with the divine), but I’m not entirely sure how you could possibly perceive that your question hasn’t been answered. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/455 "2013-06-20T16:44:59Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God, not bounded by time or physical limitations, creator of the universe, and you want him to move and act in accordance with your expectations? > > Psalms 8:4: what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them? 5 You have made them a little lower than the angels and crowned them with glory and honor. 6 You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet. > > That’s not being exceedingly generous as it is? Make up you mind. Are we his extra special creation and is he our loving father or are we ants that dare not ask the honour of just a glance from the mighty creator? You can’t just jump from one to the other every time it’s convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/456 "2013-06-20T16:45:28Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > You would have to do what he said you would do. Just like a character in a book. edited to add: [Jessica Rabbit]I’m not a sinner-I’m just written that way.[/JR] ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/457 "2013-06-20T17:10:56Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Make up you mind. > Are we his extra special creation and is he our loving father or are we ants that dare not ask the honour of just a glance from the mighty creator? > You can’t just jump from one to the other every time it’s convenient. All of the above. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/458 "2013-06-20T17:13:58Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > All of the above. It’s the new “Vagueism”. As long as you don’t put too much thought into it, _everything_ can be true! ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/459 "2013-06-20T17:16:21Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > All of the above. `So, you don’t really have a actual answer to my questions. That’s all right, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/460 "2013-06-20T17:18:38Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > `So, you don’t really have a actual answer to my questions. > That’s all right, you know. I quoted the Psalms. The scriptures contain plenty of references to both man’s insignificance before God, and God’s mercy and grace towards mankind. God is not obligated to mankind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=24)