# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/41 "2013-06-15T19:09:08Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Do you ever feel doubt that it was more than just inside your head? No. That may be the only thing in my life I’ve never doubted. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/42 "2013-06-16T02:21:20Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > Do you ever feel doubt that it was more than just inside your head? Me, I’ve seen far too many strange things _outside_ my head… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/43 "2013-06-16T14:16:03Z")
> [@Randvek](#): > > Why is it that threads on atheism or Christianity get page after page, but a thread on actual, denomination-neutral experiences like this gets so little interest? I am beginning to think that people only care about religion or no religion when they can attack someone over it. This topic is hard to argue about. Those who have this sort of experience just sort of nod to others who have - there isn’t much to say. We can argue about what it means, I suppose, but one of the characteristics (I have found) of people who have such experiences is a sort of ecumenalism - they are more sure of the reality of the experience, than of the religious explaination for it; they are willing, as it were, to disagree on the latter. In short, they are sure they have experienced something, and that it is meaningful to them, but tend to be more open than most to the notion that - well - that all religions are (basically) human attempts to understand the relationship between people and this presence. Maybe the Judeo-Christian God and the Hindu notion of the godhead are more or less the same thing. Maybe all are sort of the same thing - or at least, some thinkers from each tradition follow the same path. Huxley was very much of this point of view: [The Perennial Philosophy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perennial_Philosophy) Those who have not had the experience can either accept the reality of it or not, but either way it is hard to argue - because there is no real proof to argue about, as it is entirely subjective. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/44 "2013-06-16T23:10:41Z")
I would argue more (I have plenty to say on the matter) but it’s probably just going to cause offence to those who posted their experiences, and it’s certainly not going to change any minds. If anyone starts a thread with more room for debate I will gladly take part, but this thread seems to be more informative than debatable, despite the forum it’s in. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/45 "2013-06-17T00:31:40Z")
> [@Bozuit](#): > > I would argue more (I have plenty to say on the matter) but it’s probably just going to cause offence to those who posted their experiences, and it’s certainly not going to change any minds. If anyone starts a thread with more room for debate I will gladly take part, but this thread seems to be more informative than debatable, despite the forum it’s in. Yep, there is nothing to debate, except between people who haven’t had such an experience. My share: I was raised an atheist but I was more “spiritual” as an adult, I guess you could say. I was researching a novel for which I needed a scene in a Catholic church. I wrote the whole novel except for that scene because I couldn’t make myself go into one for some reason. I had never been to any kind of Christian service except for the occasional wedding. I knew amazingly little about Christianity, it held no interest for me at all. So finally a lapsed Catholic friend dragged me to a Christmas Mass, so I could finish my book. I sat there totally stunned, hardly took anything in. I didn’t know what was happening to me, so I went back the next Sunday alone. And the next. I would sit and cry helplessly, with gratitude, through the entire service. I didn’t stop crying at Mass for at least a year. That was about 20 years ago. I’m still Catholic. I didn’t have any visions or experience what people describe as miracles. More like what Catholic mystics call “consolations”. I don’t really give a shit what anyone believes about it. I don’t feel special about it. I don’t think Christians are specially favored by God, I don’t think anyone is. I’m pretty uninterested in theology. I find the bile spewed by atheists on this board offensive but I understand to a degree; I also find illogical beliefs annoying. However, what I personally have is not about logic at all, it cannot be destroyed nor strengthened with logic, or science. It simply exists on another plane, a plane that cannot be argued out of existence. I did not choose to be a Christian, a faith, by the way, I find tacky, full of contradiction, sentimental, and in many ways ridiculous, in other ways immoral. Doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/46 "2013-06-17T15:28:05Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > All right, let’s get it over with. One day, about 25 years ago, while alone, I heard the angels sing. Was the song heard through your ears or in your imagination. How did you know it was angels? > [@](#): > > My, you are quick on the attack. There was a thread on the Dope a few weeks back that dealt with Hell, and a fairly strong case was made that the references to Hell actually imply (if not impel) the belief that the “lost” do not suffer eternally, but are utterly destroyed. I agree with that, but do not pretend to think that I understand what actually happens after death. Do you think it acceptable that lots of people are denied revelation or appropriate indoctrination are “utterly destroyed” while you get to live in paradise forever? > [@](#): > > In addition to studying the Bible and Christianity, I’ve also studied comparative religion. I’m not at all certain that Christians are the only ones to have eternal life, and I don’t pretend to know. Are you certain there is eternal life? If so, what makes you certain? > [@](#): > > You’ve mentioned in the past how hypocritical you find my faith and the doctrines of the Presbyterians. I’m curious what you mean by that. You said you were a liberal Christian and things you said before made it clear to me that you don’t really align your beliefs with the Bible, Presbyterian interpretation thereof (which I think follows Calvinist doctrines) or even the teachings of Jesus as described in the Gospels. Rather it sounds like you just believe like a modern day liberal American does and you cherry pick the Bible and Jesus where IT agrees with YOU and pretend you are profoundly studying it. I think that is both hypocritical and phony. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/47 "2013-06-17T15:33:04Z")
> [@huck](#): > > kable, I haven’t described the experience to which I refer to my husband of 28 years so (for the reasons already stated) I won’t do so here. If that leads you to conclude that I made it up, so be it–but why would I do that? People lie and fool themselves for a number or reasons. > [@](#): > > I was brought up in a not-very-devout RC family but lived much of the time with my grandfather. He was a brilliant man (a labor organizer and gifted amateur naturalist) who was staunchly atheist and who believed that religion had done much harm in the world. He was too smart and too honest to claim that all religious people are stupid or evil, but believed that faith in God was misguided and counterproductive. I came to agree with him. Do you think your grandfather deserves to go to hell, or have his soul destroyed, or do you think he had fair reasons for his beliefs? > [@](#): > > Another grandfather was a Jew who became a Lutheran minister, so there were certainly other religions besides RC for me to “return” to; in any case, I have deliberately chosen a different denomination because it is more inclusive and tolerant. The Bible itself is intolerant though isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/48 "2013-06-17T15:40:35Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Really, I think the issue here with divine experiences, and why many people are reluctant to share them is that they are usually very subjective and often very personal. For me, the best analogy I can give is like that moment you realize that you love someone. Maybe that’s true. Do you think the experience of love is supernatural or natural. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/49 "2013-06-17T15:41:09Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No. That may be the only thing in my life I’ve never doubted. Do you think you have a unique ability to not fool yourself? If you admit that it happens to other people, what quality do you have that everyone else in the world lacks? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/50 "2013-06-17T15:43:12Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I find myself grateful to kable for starting this thread. I’ve never talked with anyone else who’s had a similar experience, and am amazed how many there are here on one message board. I don’t usually share it because I’ve been told it was a hallucination, or that I was/am delusional, or that God doesn’t work that way, so reading other people’s witnesses is really supportive. There can’t really be any attacks on these statements on scriptural grounds, because that would be pretty much after-the-fact anyway. Conflict drives arguments and discussions, so I’m guessing that’s why the thread’s so short. I don’t see much room for attack from scriptural grounds because all described thus far seem very generic, and theists seem to attribute them to whatever religious superstition is nearest too them. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/51 "2013-06-17T15:44:19Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No. That may be the only thing in my life I’ve never doubted. Isn’t that irrational? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/52 "2013-06-17T15:51:17Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Was the song heard through your ears or in your imagination. How did you know it was angels? Good to have you back. I was beginning to worry. It was 25 years ago, so I’ll just say ears. I answered about the angels already. Whatever it was, was from God. > [@](#): > > Do you think it acceptable that lots of people are denied revelation or appropriate indoctrination are “utterly destroyed” while you get to live in paradise forever? I think it’s not up to me. > [@](#): > > Are you certain there is eternal life? If so, what makes you certain? Certain? No. Hopeful, yes. > [@](#): > > You said you were a liberal Christian and things you said before made it clear to me that you don’t really align your beliefs with the Bible, Presbyterian interpretation thereof (which I think follows Calvinist doctrines) or even the teachings of Jesus as described in the Gospels. Rather it sounds like you just believe like a modern day liberal American does and you cherry pick the Bible and Jesus where IT agrees with YOU and pretend you are profoundly studying it. I think that is both hypocritical and phony. You are correct that I do not align my beliefs solely on the Bible or Presbyterian doctrines. (BTW, they used to be Calvinist, but not so much today.) And I can see where you’d think my beliefs are as you mentioned. But just because I have studied the writings of other religions, as well as mythology, folklore, history, &c., and bring that information to my study of the scriptures, that does not mean I am less than diligent in my application of hermeneutics. If two people make a thorough study of the Constitution, along with its history and other writings of the founding fathers, and then honestly disagree, would you jump to the conclusion they are cherry picking? I am very much aware that no two scholars of the Bible have agreed point-for-point on the Bible in its entirety, and that major divisions of opinion are made even for individual books, chapters and verses. The fact that I, having weighed the evidence available, choose one interpretation over another is simply good scholarship, and on the occasions I’ve found myself to be in error, I’ve changed that interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/53 "2013-06-17T15:52:04Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > So finally a lapsed Catholic friend dragged me to a Christmas Mass, so I could finish my book. I sat there totally stunned, hardly took anything in. I didn’t know what was happening to me, so I went back the next Sunday alone. And the next. I would sit and cry helplessly, with gratitude, through the entire service. I didn’t stop crying at Mass for at least a year. That was about 20 years ago. I’m still Catholic. I think Catholic churches are really cool too. I’ve done Christmas service in Notra Dame cathedral. I was at St. Pauls last year and I think the Catholics win out. The images, the incense, the music were all really awe inspiring. But then I did a bit of a reality check and thought about all the evil the Catholic church has done over the centuries, and realize you can build some really great buildings with tithes and the sale of indulgences etc. So I never became a Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/54 "2013-06-17T15:54:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you think you have a unique ability to not fool yourself? If you admit that it happens to other people, what quality do you have that everyone else in the world lacks? Not a bit. I’ve fooled myself before, and I’m perfectly willing to admit I’ve made mistakes in judgment. I said at the outset that I didn’t expect my experience to convince anyone else, which was why I was reluctant to express it. But I believe it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/55 "2013-06-17T15:56:40Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Isn’t that irrational? If it had happened to you, you’d understand. I said before I didn’t expect to be able to convince you or anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/56 "2013-06-17T15:58:03Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Not a bit. I’ve fooled myself before, and I’m perfectly willing to admit I’ve made mistakes in judgment. I said at the outset that I didn’t expect my experience to convince anyone else, which was why I was reluctant to express it. But I believe it happened. And the other times you fooled yourself-were you just as sure? What makes this particular experience “foolproof”? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/57 "2013-06-17T15:58:55Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Whatever it was, was from God. How do you know? > [@](#): > > I think it’s not up to me. I don’t think it has to be up to you, for you to have an opinion. Do you think it fair that some people get eternal paradise while others get their souls murdered? > [@](#): > > You are correct that I do not align my beliefs solely on the Bible or Presbyterian doctrines. (BTW, they used to be Calvinist, but not so much today.) And I can see where you’d think my beliefs are as you mentioned. But just because I have studied the writings of other religions, as well as mythology, folklore, history, &c., and bring that information to my study of the scriptures, that does not mean I am less than diligent in my application of hermeneutics. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck. You doubt hellfire, I imagine because you don’t like it. Have you applied similar study and skepticism with regards to heaven? > [@](#): > > If two people make a thorough study of the Constitution, along with its history and other writings of the founding fathers, and then honestly disagree, would you jump to the conclusion they are cherry picking? Maybe. > [@](#): > > I am very much aware that no two scholars of the Bible have agreed point-for-point on the Bible in its entirety, and that major divisions of opinion are made even for individual books, chapters and verses. The fact that I, having weighed the evidence available, choose one interpretation over another is simply good scholarship, and on the occasions I’ve found myself to be in error, I’ve changed that interpretation. Don’t you find it at least a little coincidental that your interpretations square so well with modern day liberalism? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/58 "2013-06-17T16:01:06Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > If it had happened to you, you’d understand. I said before I didn’t expect to be able to convince you or anyone else. I’m just trying to figure out how you could be so certain of your memories from 25 years ago. We know people hallucinate, we know people misremember. How can you be so certain that you did neither? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/59 "2013-06-17T16:02:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And the other times you fooled yourself-were you just as sure? What makes this particular experience “foolproof”? No, as I said, I’ve never been more sure of anything in my life. What made it foolproof was the connection with the divine, which, I realize, doesn’t allow for my being able to prove it to you. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/60 "2013-06-17T16:03:56Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > You are correct that I do not align my beliefs solely on the Bible or Presbyterian doctrines. (BTW, they used to be Calvinist, but not so much today.) Do you believe in predestination like the Calvinists do? Is that why you don’t bother much to witness of your revelation, or concern yourself with those unfortunate souls who are not of the elect? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=4)