# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/61 "2013-06-17T16:06:45Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No, as I said, I’ve never been more sure of anything in my life. What made it foolproof was the connection with the divine, which, I realize, doesn’t allow for my being able to prove it to you. Why do you think God sang specifically for you and not everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/62 "2013-06-17T16:09:48Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No, as I said, I’ve never been more sure of anything in my life. What made it foolproof was the connection with the divine, which, I realize, doesn’t allow for my being able to prove it to you. You said there were words that they sang. What language would you say it most resembled? Was it harmony or melody? Was there bass or tenor involved? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/63 "2013-06-17T16:12:38Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I don’t see much room for attack from scriptural grounds because all described thus far seem very generic, and theists seem to attribute them to whatever religious superstition is nearest too them. That’s fair enough, though I’d put it more like ‘people interpret the experience though their personal, cultural lens’. If they live in a culture and have a mindset receptive to theism, it isn’t surprising that they would attribute it to that. The important thing, though, is not whether it offers proof for the existence of the supernatural (clearly it doesn’t, or at least no proof convincing to anyone other than the person directly having the experience, as the experience is wholly subjective, and some like myself don’t even believe it is in the least supernatural), but this: does the experience help the person who has had it in any way? To use an analogy, the important thing about such emotions as ‘love’ is not whether it is caused by biochemical reactions in the individual’s brain, or by a little winged cherub firing arrows … those are no doubt interesting questions, but not nearly as interesting as actually experiencing love. A more pertinent question than whether the experience is caused by supernatural forces is this: is it good for anything? Does it make you a better and happier person than you would otherwise be? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/64 "2013-06-17T16:14:54Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > How do you know? I know because it happened to me. > [@](#): > > I don’t think it has to be up to you, for you to have an opinion. Do you think it fair that some people get eternal paradise while others get their souls murdered? First, this is off-topic, and a very big one. For the sake of argument, if the God of the Bible exists he is way beyond humanity’s ability to understand him. (And you can find that in the Book of Job.) Therefore, it is not the purview of mankind to judge God or his decisions. My opinion is that I don’t have enough information to accurately answer that question. > [@](#): > > If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck. You doubt hellfire, I imagine because you don’t like it. Have you applied similar study and skepticism with regards to heaven? Yes, I have. What heaven actually is cannot be determined from the Bible (or any other religious works), in my opinion. That is because the scriptures were written trying to explain very complex ideas to a fairly primitive civilization. > [@](#): > > Don’t you find it at least a little coincidental that your interpretations square so well with modern day liberalism? You mean, am I aware that I am a product of my environment? Certainly. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/65 "2013-06-17T16:20:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > A more pertinent question than whether the experience is caused by supernatural forces is this: is it good for anything? Does it make you a better and happier person than you would otherwise be? No-whether it is caused by supernatural forces or not is absolutely more pertinent. If you think the direction comes from within yourself then you are allowed to examine it to see if it is right and proper that it be followed, but the “HOLY VOICE” that directs you, for good _or ill_, is of a higher authority that is usually not open to questioning if you are of the type that hears such voices. If I decide to do something nice for someone else it is because I decided to do it, but if I have the urge to do harm then I have the ability to wait and think it through and hopefully change my own mind. Who changes the mind of the Devine? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/66 "2013-06-17T16:22:50Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you believe in predestination like the Calvinists do? Is that why you don’t bother much to witness of your revelation, or concern yourself with those unfortunate souls who are not of the elect? Wow, predestination. You are talking about another 2 millennia of arguments, there. I’m of the opinion it’s a question of God’s point-of-view vs. Man’s point-of-view: since God is outside of time, he knows what we will do, but since Man is inside time, he’s making the decisions. I don’t witness my “revelation”, because I can’t see how it would convince anyone but myself. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/67 "2013-06-17T16:23:13Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Maybe that’s true. Do you think the experience of love is supernatural or natural. In my experience, at least, it is both. There is definitely a spiritual aspect to love. For me, there is an extra sense, something beyond a physical sensation, an emotion, or a thought, that is there and I cannot express it in any other sense. It’s like trying to explain color to someone who was born blind, I can only really explain color relative to other colors, or emotions relative to other feelings. > [@Kable](#): > > Do you think it acceptable that lots of people are denied revelation or appropriate indoctrination are “utterly destroyed” while you get to live in paradise forever? > > Are you certain there is eternal life? If so, what makes you certain? > > You said you were a liberal Christian and things you said before made it clear to me that you don’t really align your beliefs with the Bible, Presbyterian interpretation thereof (which I think follows Calvinist doctrines) or even the teachings of Jesus as described in the Gospels. Rather it sounds like you just believe like a modern day liberal American does and you cherry pick the Bible and Jesus where IT agrees with YOU and pretend you are profoundly studying it. I think that is both hypocritical and phony. I’m not really sure what benefit there is to this discussion to attacking a particular person’s religious stances. I think the point here is that these brushes with the divine aren’t limited to one set of beliefs and, in fact, as this thread has shown, even atheists can have similar experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/68 "2013-06-17T16:23:55Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Why do you think God sang specifically for you and not everyone? I’ve asked myself this frequently. I don’t have an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/69 "2013-06-17T16:26:50Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I know because it happened to me. That’s a copout. > [@](#): > > First, this is off-topic, and a very big one. For the sake of argument, if the God of the Bible exists he is way beyond humanity’s ability to understand him. (And you can find that in the Book of Job.) Therefore, it is not the purview of mankind to judge God or his decisions. My opinion is that I don’t have enough information to accurately answer that question. It’s my topic and I think it relevant to assess what particular beliefs your song is seen as proof thereof. Now you are citing Job as though it’s true, but before you were distancing yourself from other parts of the Bible. Part of this whole hypocrisy thing is how you decide when to cite the Bible as proof and when to distance yourself? Not sure what information you are lacking. The Bible is clear, and your song is evidence, that some people get revelations and some don’t. Some get eternal paradise and some get murder at best and an eternal furnace of fire at worse. Not sure what else you would need to know to decide if that is fair or not. > [@](#): > > Yes, I have. What heaven actually is cannot be determined from the Bible (or any other religious works), in my opinion. That is because the scriptures were written trying to explain very complex ideas to a fairly primitive civilization. What particular study have you applied regarding heaven, to know if it is real or metaphor. Seem you are pretty certain that much of the hell talk is metaphor. > [@](#): > > You mean, am I aware that I am a product of my environment? Certainly. When your environmental influences contradict with the words of Jesus, which do you go with? Seems to me it’s not Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/70 "2013-06-17T16:27:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You said there were words that they sang. What language would you say it most resembled? Was it harmony or melody? Was there bass or tenor involved? Okay, again, it’s been 25 years. I don’t recall the words or the language. There was melody and a lot of harmony, with all four SATB parts, a capella. I have considered that it may have sounded like that only because that’s the way my brain would accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/71 "2013-06-17T16:27:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No-whether it is caused by supernatural forces or not is absolutely more pertinent. If you think the direction comes from within yourself then you are allowed to examine it to see if it is right and proper that it be followed, but the “HOLY VOICE” that directs you, for good _or ill_, is of a higher authority that is usually not open to questioning if you are of the type that hears such voices. If I decide to do something nice for someone else it is because I decided to do it, but if I have the urge to do harm then I have the ability to wait and think it through and hopefully change my own mind. Who changes the mind of the Devine? You are thinking of this as voices giving specific commandments or directions. If that was the case, I’d agree. But from what I’ve experienced, and everyone I’ve talked with, it absolutely isn’t like that. What you are thinking of is more like schizophrenia. The people I know who have had such experiences are otherwise sane. Or so I suppose. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/72 "2013-06-17T16:28:20Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I’ve asked myself this frequently. I don’t have an answer. Considering all that rides on it, isn’t it unfair that God sings only to a few? Or can’t you answer that either? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/73 "2013-06-17T16:39:53Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, again, it’s been 25 years. I don’t recall the words or the language. There was melody and a lot of harmony, with all four SATB parts, a capella. I have considered that it may have sounded like that only because that’s the way my brain would accept it. But none of this is up for consideration? > **[Auditory hallucination](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_hallucination)** > > An auditory hallucination, or paracusia, is a form of hallucination that involves perceiving sounds without auditory stimulus. While experiencing an auditory hallucination, the affected person hears a sound or sounds that did not come from the natural environment. > A common form of auditory hallucination involves hearing one or more voices without a speaker present, known as an auditory verbal hallucination. This may be associated with psychotic disorders, most notably schizophrenia, and this ph... ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/74 "2013-06-17T16:42:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Prof. Pepperwinkle > I know because it happened to me. > > That’s a copout. If the only available data is my experience, then that’s all there is. > [@](#): > > First, this is off-topic, and a very big one. For the sake of argument, if the God of the Bible exists he is way beyond humanity’s ability to understand him. (And you can find that in the Book of Job.) Therefore, it is not the purview of mankind to judge God or his decisions. My opinion is that I don’t have enough information to accurately answer that question. > > It’s my topic and I think it relevant to assess what particular beliefs your song is seen as proof thereof. Now you are citing Job as though it’s true, but before you were distancing yourself from other parts of the Bible. Part of this whole hypocrisy thing is how you decide when to cite the Bible as proof and when to distance yourself? Not sure what information you are lacking. The Bible is clear, and your song is evidence, that some people get revelations and some don’t. Some get eternal paradise and some get murder at best and an eternal furnace of fire at worse. Not sure what else you would need to know to decide if that is fair or not. I was citing Job as evidence of the idea of God’s otherness being known by the authors of the Bible. This is an apt reference. As far as the fairness of the issue, my point of view is limited to some 60 years experience as an aging human being in one specific country. For me to think that, even with study, I can determine the fairness of an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God, who is not limited by time or mortality, is pathetic hubris. [QUOTE] Yes, I have. What heaven actually is cannot be determined from the Bible (or any other religious works), in my opinion. That is because the scriptures were written trying to explain very complex ideas to a fairly primitive civilization. What particular study have you applied regarding heaven, to know if it is real or metaphor. Seem you are pretty certain that much of the hell talk is metaphor. [/QUOTE/ Tell you what, get a concordance and check out the references to the afterlife in the OT and the NT. You will find a wide and disparate body of opinion. > [@](#): > > You mean, am I aware that I am a product of my environment? Certainly. > > When your environmental influences contradict with the words of Jesus, which do you go with? Seems to me it’s not Jesus. I’m not sure how to frame an answer to that. You imply that having studied a number of century’s worth of interpretation, history and theology makes me less likely to understand the Bible, not more. For a reference point, how much Bible study have you done? ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/75 "2013-06-17T16:43:19Z")
I can think of only one reason why a person might have a ‘religious’ experience. God singled you out for that special message so that you can do something for Her in return. Maybe you are destined to sacrifice your own life in order to save the life of a child destined to become a great minister or rabbi or other leader? Maybe She has a thing for some other business She wants you to pursue. That said, a ‘Religious Experience’ without a corresponding request to perform a particular task seems particularly illogical. I’m afraid I lean to the side of the brain, that we don’t yet fully understand, creating what you think you need for when you think you most need it. Nothing more, nothing less. A miracle of sorts, even so. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/76 "2013-06-17T16:44:37Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Considering all that rides on it, isn’t it unfair that God sings only to a few? Or can’t you answer that either? see Post #74 ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/77 "2013-06-17T16:48:29Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > But none of this is up for consideration? > > [Auditory hallucination - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_hallucination) “Other types of auditory hallucination include exploding head syndrome and musical ear syndrome. In the latter, people will hear music playing in their mind, usually songs they are familiar with. Reports have also mentioned that it is also possible to get musical hallucinations from listening to music for long periods of time.[5] This can be caused by: lesions on the brain stem (often resulting from a stroke); also, tumors, encephalitis, or abscesses.[6] Other reasons include hearing loss and epileptic activity.[7]” So, the day I heard it I was coming home from work. I had not been listening to music that day, and did not have the radio on. I’ve had my brain checked out since then for a complete physical that was job related, and no problems there. My hearing loss didn’t start happening until about 10 years ago, so there’s no reason to suspect that. And, again, I’ve never heard it before or since, and it did not sound like anything else I’ve ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/78 "2013-06-17T16:54:10Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > If the only available data is my experience, then that’s all there is. I think you should be open to the idea that you just had an auditory hallucination. > [@](#): > > I was citing Job as evidence of the idea of God’s otherness being known by the authors of the Bible. This is an apt reference. As far as the fairness of the issue, my point of view is limited to some 60 years experience as an aging human being in one specific country. For me to think that, even with study, I can determine the fairness of an omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient God, who is not limited by time or mortality, is pathetic hubris. There you go spouting things as if you know they are true. What makes you think god’s are omnipotent, omnipresent or omniscient? And what does that have to do with whether it is fair or not that some people get paradise and some get death? > [@](#): > > Tell you what, get a concordance and check out the references to the afterlife in the OT and the NT. You will find a wide and disparate body of opinion. What verses in particular make led you to believe eternal paradise is real? > [@](#): > > I’m not sure how to frame an answer to that. You imply that having studied a number of century’s worth of interpretation, history and theology makes me less likely to understand the Bible, not more. For a reference point, how much Bible study have you done? I read the Bible. I know what Jesus says on a number of topics. My guess is that on a number of things you don’t mind contradicting Jesus. You would probably have an excuse that his words might not really be his, or they were meant for that culture only, but you have played those cards a few times before and would rather not have to play them again. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/79 "2013-06-17T16:59:31Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > So, the day I heard it I was coming home from work. I had not been listening to music that day, and did not have the radio on. I’ve had my brain checked out since then for a complete physical that was job related, and no problems there. > My hearing loss didn’t start happening until about 10 years ago, so there’s no reason to suspect that. And, again, I’ve never heard it before or since, and it did not sound like anything else I’ve ever heard. > [@wiki](#): > > Non-psychotic symptomology[edit] > There is on-going research that supports the prevalence of auditory hallucinations, with a lack of other conventional psychotic symptoms (such as delusions, or paranoia), particularly in pre-pubertal children.[26] These studies indicate a remarkably high percentage of children (up to 14% of the population sampled[27]) experienced sounds or voices without any external cause, though it should also be noted that “sounds” are not considered by psychiatrists to be examples of auditory hallucinations. Differentating actual auditory hallucinations from “sounds” or a normal internal dialogue is important since the latter phenomena are not indicative of mental illness. > > Causes[edit] > The causes of auditory hallucinations are unclear. > Dr. Charles Fernyhough, of the University of Durham poses one theory among many but stands as a reasonable example of the literature. Given standing evidence towards involvement of the inner voice in auditory hallucinations,[28] he proposes two alternative hypotheses on the origins of auditory hallucinations in the non-psychotic. Both of which rely on understanding of the internalization process of the inner voice.[18][27][29] > > Auditory hallucinations have been known to manifest as a result of intense stress, sleep deprivation, drug use, and errors in development of proper psychological processes.[clarification needed][18] Genetic correlation has been identified with auditory hallucinations,[17] but most work with non-psychotic causes of auditory hallucinations is still ongoing.[18][19] > > High caffeine consumption has been linked to an increase in the likelihood of experiencing auditory hallucinations. A study conducted by the La Trobe University School of Psychological Sciences revealed that as few as five cups of coffee a day could trigger the phenomenon.[20] Or some god sang a song for you, and only you. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/80 "2013-06-17T17:00:47Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > see Post #74 Does it at least “seem” unfair to you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=5)