# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/101 "2013-06-18T02:24:44Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > In my experience, at least, it is both. There is definitely a spiritual aspect to love. Cite? > [@](#): > > I’m not really sure what benefit there is to this discussion to attacking a particular person’s religious stances. I think the point here is that these brushes with the divine aren’t limited to one set of beliefs and, in fact, as this thread has shown, even atheists can have similar experiences. These experiences are given as proofs of gods, at least personal proofs. If they are non-specific natural phenomenon then they aren’t much in the way of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/102 "2013-06-18T02:27:21Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, yes, it seems unfair. Do you make it a habit of following beings and causes that according to your own reasoning are unjust? What makes you do so? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/103 "2013-06-18T02:31:48Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Two weeks later I broke all sales records selling eight time shares to one family for the busy season of July fourth which was the highest price they had. I made $3,000 after taxes and the rest of the story will have to wait … because this has taken too long already. I thought time shares were kind of a scam. Would Jesus sell time shares? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/104 "2013-06-18T02:33:47Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > He will have mercy on who he will have mercy and compassion on who he will have compassion … it does not depend on man’s deeds nor on man’s desires, but on the mercy of God. So you’re god sends some to heaven and some he tortures in hell, and it has nothing to do with a man’s deeds or desires? Nice guy.:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/105 "2013-06-18T02:36:54Z")
> [@huck](#): > > No, I loved and respected my grandfather. He was a good man, a hard worker for the benefit of others, and extremely intelligent and well-read. > > However, Instead of devoting hours to trying to convince theists that he was smarter than they were, he devoted his time and energies to improving the lot of the working people. Do you believe people (including your grandfather) can inherit eternal life even if they do not take Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? > [@](#): > > Again, I am not a bible literalist, so your attempts to pull the wool from my eyes are a bit beside the point. What do you mean by that? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/106 "2013-06-18T02:41:01Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’ll use an example from my youth. I was about 13 or 14 and my best friend had his first girlfriend and things were going quickly. His mom was concerned about him rushing into it, getting hurt, and particularly about protection, but she didn’t feel he was receptive when she talked to him about it. She talked to me and asked me to talk to him, so I did, and he agreed to wait and said he would use protection. She never got pregnant. Maybe my discussion with him had some impact, maybe it didn’t, but looking back at it, do you think his mom cares if I “get credit” for that conversation? All she really cares about is that her son didn’t make a big mistake. Do they even read the Bible in church anymore? If I’m not mistaken, Jesus would have wanted you to tell your friend not to fornicate. Do you really think Jesus would support you telling your friend to just wear a rubber? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/107 "2013-06-18T11:57:59Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That’s a contradictory answer. Is man predestined to heaven or hell or not? Paul wrote that they are. So in your opinion is Paul writing the word of God, or just giving another of his errant opinions? It’s a contraditory answer because the Bible, having been written by different people with different points of view, give contradictory opinions. To which scriptures of Paul do you refer? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/108 "2013-06-18T11:59:12Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you make it a habit of following beings and causes that according to your own reasoning are unjust? What makes you do so? No, I said it seems unjust, not that it is. I’m aware of the limitations of my intellect and the human intellect in general. By the way, I’ve picked up a couple e-books by Sam Harris. Do you recommend I read _Lying_ or _Letter to the Christians_ first? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/109 "2013-06-18T13:43:08Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > It’s a contraditory answer because the Bible, having been written by different people with different points of view, give contradictory opinions. To which scriptures of Paul do you refer? Sure the Bible is at times contradictory but peoples fates are predestined or they aren’t. God is all sovereign or he isn’t. If everyone’s fates are predetermined and/or everything happens in accordance with your god’s will, then there is no room for free will. Relevant Bible verses are: Romans 8: 29-30 Romans 9:13-21 Ephesians 1: 4-5 Ephesians 1:11 A quick google search makes me think that as a Presbyterian you should be favoring predestination over free will. > **[Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)](https://pcusa.org)** > > We're thrilled to welcome you – whether you’re a church member, leader, or someone curious about faith. Find inspiration and resources that support PC(USA) communities and deepen your relationship with God. Let’s explore, connect, and embark on a... However as a “liberal” interpretor of the Bible I imagine implications regarding predestination will cause you to waffle on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/110 "2013-06-18T13:47:30Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No, I said it seems unjust, not that it is. I’m aware of the limitations of my intellect and the human intellect in general. By the way, I’ve picked up a couple e-books by Sam Harris. Do you recommend I read _Lying_ or _Letter to the Christians_ first? Do you make it a habit of following beings and causes that according to your reasoning just “seem” unjust to you? Both books are good. Probably a letter to a Christian nation is more relevant to the topic, but it’s been years since I read it. However from an atheists perspective, nothing beats reading the Bible from cover to cover. It’s pretty crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/111 "2013-06-18T14:02:56Z")
I’ve had what I thought at the time was a divine experience or two. The one I remember the clearest was: I was at a Hindu camp, a camp for Satya Sai Baba. We were meditating. I clearly remember being in the most pure meditation I have ever been in - that is, I was totally looking inwards. And I had a vision. Inside my heart? soul? I saw a small black pearl. As I watched, this black pearl slowly changed to white, a gleaming, bright white light, and raised up, being nestled inside a lotus flower. This light filled my entire soul. At the time I took this to be a sign that God was with me. Now I know it was just a product of meditation. On the other hand, I spent many years as a teenager praying for a sign, wanting to believe, hoping God would give me a sign. Nothing came, nothing concrete, and belief just…faded away. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/112 "2013-06-18T14:11:38Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you make it a habit of following beings and causes that according to your reasoning just “seem” unjust to you? > > Both books are good. Probably a letter to a Christian nation is more relevant to the topic, but it’s been years since I read it. However from an atheists perspective, nothing beats reading the Bible from cover to cover. It’s pretty crazy. I make it a habit of thinking things through, studying the relevant available information, searching out opinions on all sides of an issue and then deciding what, if any, conclusion can be drawn. To your original question, which is, basically: if God isn’t good, why should we worship him? The answer is, We are not in a position to judge God. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/113 "2013-06-18T14:15:47Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Sure the Bible is at times contradictory but peoples fates are predestined or they aren’t. God is all sovereign or he isn’t. If everyone’s fates are predetermined and/or everything happens in accordance with your god’s will, then there is no room for free will. > > Relevant Bible verses are: > > Romans 8: 29-30 > Romans 9:13-21 > Ephesians 1: 4-5 > Ephesians 1:11 > > A quick google search makes me think that as a Presbyterian you should be favoring predestination over free will. > > [Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)](http://www.presbyterianmission.org/ministries/today/predestination/) > > However as a “liberal” interpretor of the Bible I imagine implications regarding predestination will cause you to waffle on the subject. Yes, Presbyterians have had a long tradition with predestination. Most Presbyterians I know don’t think it’s a major issue anymore. We’re much more interested in social ministries that provide help and education: food pantries, clothing distribution, educational grants, help with paying for medicine, free legal clinics, distribution of Bibles, etc. I will check my resources on those scriptures and return to this when I’ve got something to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/114 "2013-06-18T14:25:25Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I make it a habit of thinking things through, studying the relevant available information, searching out opinions on all sides of an issue and then deciding what, if any, conclusion can be drawn. To your original question, which is, basically: if God isn’t good, why should we worship him? The answer is, We are not in a position to judge God. If all this is for our benefit(as the Bible puts forth), then we are the only ones that _can, and should,_ judge God. If someone makes a pie for me, I get to judge its worth. If someone builds a house for me, I have the right to examine it for structural integrity. If someone creates an entire universe for my benefit, I’m going to give a good look-see. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/115 "2013-06-18T14:25:44Z")
It’s important to keep in mind what “brushes with the divine” does and what it doesn’t. I’m not a believer, but even so - a “brush with the divine” is by definition a direct contact or experience (in one’s mind, at least). It gives no special insight into the intellectual workings of a faith or theology - what I would call the ‘cultural context’. A person with a “brush with the divine” isn’t really in a better position to comment on that, than someone who hasn’t had one. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/116 "2013-06-18T14:29:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If all this is for our benefit(as the Bible puts forth), then we are the only ones that _can, and should,_ judge God. If someone makes a pie for me, I get to judge its worth. If someone builds a house for me, I have the right to examine it for structural integrity. If someone creates an entire universe for my benefit, I’m going to give a good look-see. This assumes we are peers of God. I don’t know anybody else who can create a physical universe. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/117 "2013-06-18T14:31:49Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > This assumes we are peers of God. I don’t know anybody else who can create a physical universe. I can’t build a house-does this mean I can’t complain about one that is built for me? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/118 "2013-06-18T14:37:51Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > I make it a habit of thinking things through, studying the relevant available information, searching out opinions on all sides of an issue and then deciding what, if any, conclusion can be drawn. To your original question, which is, basically: if God isn’t good, why should we worship him? The answer is, We are not in a position to judge God. It seems to me that you thought things through and according to your reasoning you concluded God at least appears to be unjust/not good, but then recoil to your own ignorance. My guess is you got this idea that you are not in the position to judge God from the Bible, the very Bible that you, as a liberal Christian, agree is written not by God but by fallible people and is filled with many errors. So I don’t see why you have to appeal to ignorance in this case except that appeals to reason led to conclusions that weren’t to your liking. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/119 "2013-06-18T14:41:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I can’t build a house-does this mean I can’t complain about one that is built for me? You can learn how to build a house. Given that instruction, time and materials, you could build a house. This puts you, cosmologically, on the same level as someone who already has that knowledge. Creating the universe is a different scale completely. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/120 "2013-06-18T14:41:26Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Yes, Presbyterians have had a long tradition with predestination. Most Presbyterians I know don’t think it’s a major issue anymore. We’re much more interested in social ministries that provide help and education: food pantries, clothing distribution, educational grants, help with paying for medicine, free legal clinics, distribution of Bibles, etc. That sounds reasonable giving the premise of predestination. Your church probably thinks most of those miscreants are doomed to hell, and there is nothing you or they can do to prevent it. So you might as well help make them comfortable for the short time they are here on earth, before your God can punish them just as He intends and has foreseen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=7)