# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/121 "2013-06-18T14:42:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I’m not a believer, but even so - a “brush with the divine” is by definition a direct contact or experience (in one’s mind, at least). It gives no special insight into the intellectual workings of a faith or theology - what I would call the ‘cultural context’. A person with a “brush with the divine” isn’t really in a better position to comment on that, than someone who hasn’t had one. Not if you are Joseph Smith, or Moses, or Mohammed, or… ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/122 "2013-06-18T14:44:42Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > This assumes we are peers of God. I don’t know anybody else who can create a physical universe. Genesis says that by eating from the tree of knowledge we have become like gods in our ability to judge good and evil. From my secular view I have never seen a god create a universe either, or do anything that an imaginary friend could not do equally. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/123 "2013-06-18T14:45:01Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It seems to me that you thought things through and according to your reasoning you concluded God at least appears to be unjust/not good, but then recoil to your own ignorance. > > My guess is you got this idea that you are not in the position to judge God from the Bible, the very Bible that you, as a liberal Christian, agree is written not by God but by fallible people and is filled with many errors. So I don’t see why you have to appeal to ignorance in this case except that appeals to reason led to conclusions that weren’t to your liking. Well, at least you realize I think. Your guess is only partly correct: while I have read the Bible, I’ve also read deeply in many other subjects. The ignorance you are referring to [that God is the Other, and while he may be apprehended, cannot be comprehended] appears to be universal to religion, and not limited to Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/124 "2013-06-18T14:46:38Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That sounds reasonable giving the premise of predestination. Your church probably thinks most of those miscreants are doomed to hell, and there is nothing you or they can do to prevent it. So you might as well help make them comfortable for the short time they are here on earth, before your God can punish them just as He intends and has foreseen. Uh, no. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/125 "2013-06-18T14:46:53Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > You can learn how to build a house. Given that instruction, time and materials, you could build a house. This puts you, cosmologically, on the same level as someone who already has that knowledge. Creating the universe is a different scale completely. This makes me think that Czarcasm has the leg up on your god. I don’t think He could build a house or even learn to. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/126 "2013-06-18T14:50:03Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The ignorance you are referring to [that God is the Other, and while he may be apprehended, cannot be comprehended] appears to be universal to religion, and not limited to Christians. I think that is just evidence many shysters use the same principles, not just Christian shysters. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/127 "2013-06-18T14:50:32Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > This makes me think that Czarcasm has the leg up on your god. I don’t think He could build a house or even learn to. Oh, come now, Jesus was a carpenter. Carpenters in 1st Century AD Israel built wooden houses. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/128 "2013-06-18T14:51:05Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Uh, no. Given the premise of predestination, what did I get wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/129 "2013-06-18T14:51:51Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > You can learn how to build a house. Given that instruction, time and materials, you could build a house. This puts you, cosmologically, on the same level as someone who already has that knowledge. Creating the universe is a different scale completely. He had an eternity to figure it out, too. Look how far we’ve gotten in the very short time we’ve been here, then try to imagine how far we could get in, say, a mere 5 million years or so. Your god did the best he could, and he should have the good grace to step aside when we pass his ass. No, at this time we cannot make a universe. That, however, doesn’t prevent us from learning from his mistakes. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/130 "2013-06-18T14:52:06Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Oh, come now, Jesus was a carpenter. Carpenters in 1st Century AD Israel built wooden houses. Jesus is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/131 "2013-06-18T14:52:26Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I think that is just evidence many shysters use the same principles, not just Christian shysters. In other words, you have absolute faith that all religious faiths are false? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/132 "2013-06-18T14:53:59Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Given the premise of predestination, what did I get wrong? The premise that most Presbyterians believe in predestination rather than free will is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/133 "2013-06-18T14:55:03Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Jesus is dead. But he got better. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/134 "2013-06-18T14:55:22Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > In other words, you have absolute faith that all religious faiths are false? I’m not familiar with all faiths. I’ve heard good things about Buddhism, but some say that’s more of a way of life. Not sure how you are using the word “faith” however. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/135 "2013-06-18T14:56:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He had an eternity to figure it out, too. Look how far we’ve gotten in the very short time we’ve been here, then try to imagine how far we could get in, say, a mere 5 million years or so. Your god did the best he could, and he should have the good grace to step aside when we pass his ass. No, at this time we cannot make a universe. That, however, doesn’t prevent us from learning from his mistakes. And if and when that day comes, we’ll be able to make an accurate judgment. Until then, we aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/136 "2013-06-18T14:56:24Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > But he got better. Did he? Cite your evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/137 "2013-06-18T14:57:45Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I’m not familiar with all faiths. I’ve heard good things about Buddhism, but some say that’s more of a way of life. Not sure how you are using the word “faith” however. So, you’re basing your opinion on incomplete information? And by “faith”: in this sense, a spiritual or religious system common to a multitude of people. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/138 "2013-06-18T14:58:11Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > And if and when that day comes, we’ll be able to make an accurate judgment. Until then, we aren’t. I think we need a cite that your God created the universe in the first place. If I’m not mistaken, science refutes the Bible creation story on a lot of levels. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/139 "2013-06-18T14:58:57Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Did he? Cite your evidence. Well, besides the New Testament, we have the testimony of two millennia of Christians, and the existence of the church. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/140 "2013-06-18T14:59:58Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > And if and when that day comes, we’ll be able to make an accurate judgment. Until then, we aren’t. No. Apparently until then, you won’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=8)