# Brushes with the divine? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585 "2013-06-09T21:12:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/141 "2013-06-18T15:01:31Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I think we need a cite that your God created the universe in the first place. If I’m not mistaken, science refutes the Bible creation story on a lot of levels. Hey, you’ve already got me researching predestination vs. free will. Genesis’s origin story is largely allegorical and aimed at explaining first causes to a primitive society, while creating a sense of identity and community in that society. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/142 "2013-06-18T15:01:42Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Well, besides the New Testament, we have the testimony of two millennia of Christians, and the existence of the church. You’re a little confused as to how this “evidence” thing works, I think. Do we have anything in writing from people that were there when he was killed and/or there when he turned up again? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/143 "2013-06-18T15:02:33Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > So, you’re basing your opinion on incomplete information? And by “faith”: in this sense, a spiritual or religious system common to a multitude of people. Maybe, I’m assuming the other faiths you have studied are similar to the other one’s I have studied. If there is one that you really think I should look at that is not shyster based I’d be happy to give it a look. Seems to me you used faith twice and that definition fits for only the latter instance. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/144 "2013-06-18T15:03:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No. Apparently until then, you won’t. Is a 1st grade student able to judge the correctness of a college dissertation? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/145 "2013-06-18T15:06:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You’re a little confused as to how this “evidence” thing works, I think. Do we have anything in writing from people that were there when he was killed and/or there when he turned up again? Okay, how much evidence of anything from 1st Century Israel do you think there is? Luke says he’s quoting eyewitness testimony, and that’s as close as anyone will ever get. If there is no prima facie evidence, then causal evidence must be considered. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/146 "2013-06-18T15:07:29Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Is a 1st grade student able to judge the correctness of a college dissertation? A first grade student could spot obvious mistakes like wrong dates or misspelled words, or run a quick check on the internet to see if parts of the dissertation copied the dissertations of others. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/147 "2013-06-18T15:10:21Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Okay, how much evidence of anything from 1st Century Israel do you think there is? Luke says he’s quoting eyewitness testimony, and that’s as close as anyone will ever get. If there is no prima facie evidence, then causal evidence must be considered. And said evidence must be compared to other testimony. Who went to the tomb and saw that he was missing, and who did they tell? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/148 "2013-06-18T15:11:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A first grade student could spot obvious mistakes like wrong dates or misspelled words, or run a quick check on the internet to see if parts of the dissertation copied the dissertations of others. To follow your analogy, the first grader might look at a word, think it misspelled, but actually has it confused with another word not in his vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/149 "2013-06-18T15:14:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And said evidence must be compared to other testimony. > Who went to the tomb and saw that he was missing, and who did they tell? Ah, there you have me. The NT accounts are confused because the witnesses were in an emotional state, surprised by the events of the resurrection, and because they weren’t set to writing until some 30+ years after the event. So the details vary, but they all agree to Jesus’s resurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/150 "2013-06-18T15:19:59Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > To follow your analogy, the first grader might look at a word, think it misspelled, but actually has it confused with another word not in his vocabulary. And you would have your hypothetical first grader assume that people that write college dissertations are incapable of making mistakes, and that if she/he sees something that looks like a mistake that student is supposed to assume, without question, that it really isn’t one? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/151 "2013-06-18T15:21:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And you would have your hypothetical first grader assume that people that write college dissertations are incapable of making mistakes, and that if she/he sees something that looks like a mistake that student is supposed to assume, without question, that it really isn’t one? No, I’m saying he/she isn’t qualified to judge a work that is so far beyond his/her experience and education. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/152 "2013-06-18T15:22:24Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Ah, there you have me. The NT accounts are confused because the witnesses were in an emotional state, surprised by the events of the resurrection, and because they weren’t set to writing until some 30+ years after the event. So the details vary, but they all agree to Jesus’s resurrection. A 30 year game of “telephone”-I couldn’t think of a worse type of evidence if I tried. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/153 "2013-06-18T15:24:43Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > No, I’m saying he/she isn’t qualified to judge a work that is so far beyond her experience and education. Just assume that mistakes cannot happen? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/154 "2013-06-18T15:28:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just assume that mistakes cannot happen? As I said at the start, if I hadn’t had this experience I would be an atheist (or possibly just agnostic). I can’t blame you for not accepting anecdotal evidence for miracles, and I can’t prove them either. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/155 "2013-06-18T15:33:54Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > As I said at the start, if I hadn’t had this experience I would be an atheist (or possibly just agnostic). I can’t blame you for not accepting anecdotal evidence for miracles, and I can’t prove them either. Non sequitur. Are we to assume that god is incapable of making mistakes, and if not, that Mankind is incapable of spotting them? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/156 "2013-06-18T15:42:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Non sequitur. Are we to assume that god is incapable of making mistakes, and if not, that Mankind is incapable of spotting them? How would we know if God made a mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/157 "2013-06-18T15:44:50Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > How would we know if God made a mistake? Assuming He’s taken responsibility for creating the Adversary, I’d say that’s a whopper by any measure. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/158 "2013-06-18T15:45:56Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > How would we know if God made a mistake? By seeing something that looks like a mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/159 "2013-06-18T15:48:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By seeing something that looks like a mistake? Okay, do you have an example? And how can we be sure if it’s a mistake or not? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585/160 "2013-06-18T15:50:35Z")
Our main source of energy, the Sun, gives us cancer. I’m pretty sure that’s a mistake, but I’m willing to be corrected by those who know better. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brushes-with-the-divine/660585.md?page=9)