# Brutalist architecture. What were they thinking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303 "2012-11-08T00:13:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/21 "2012-11-08T03:08:02Z")
I’m glad I’m not the only person who thinks Boston City Hall looks terrible. [Temple Israel](http://assets.dnainfo.com/generated/photo/2012/01/1327515664.jpg/image640x480.jpg), by contrast… ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/22 "2012-11-08T03:11:18Z")
Cat, Why would serious business leave no room for humanity? What do you mean by “humanity”? Doug, What makes you love them? Do I remember correctly that you have depression issues? Do you tend to like them more or less during your depressive episodes? Brutalist architecture reminds me of the concluding chapter of On Liberty by JS Mill: “The worth of a State, in the long run, is the worth of the individuals composing it; and a State which postpones the interests of their mental expansion and elevation to a little more of administrative skill, or of that semblance of it which practice gives, in the details of business; a State which dwarfs its men, in order that they may be more docile instruments in its hands even for beneficial purposes—will find that with small men no great thing can really be accomplished; and that the perfection of machinery to which it has sacrificed everything will in the end avail it nothing, for want of the vital power which, in order that the machine might work more smoothly, it has preferred to banish.” ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/23 "2012-11-08T03:12:09Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > But go ahead and rococo up all the buildings, if it makes the secret police and the disappearances go down smoother. You don’t have to be either rococo or brutal. Craftsman style seems to be decorative enough for me for private residences, while neoclassical for public buildings is more my style, (and preferably light on the accoutrements at that.) ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/24 "2012-11-08T03:13:19Z")
Would you count Bertram Goldberg’s [Prentice Hospital](http://grainedit.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/prenticebuilding.jpg) in the brutalism category? It has a certain grace, yet fits most of the criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/25 "2012-11-08T03:16:05Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It says “I believe living in the space I designed should be reserved as a form of punishment”. > > Seriously. Those buildings look like a place some future society would raise genetically modified orphans to become space marines or something. But [Art Deco](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Niagara_Mohawk_Bldg_(Syracuse,_NY).jpg) is much more [Space Mariney](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cochise_County_Courthouse_Bisbee_Arizona_ArtDecoDoors.jpg). Now, I don’t like the oppressive grandeur of Art Deco _or_ Brutalism, but hey, angels. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/26 "2012-11-08T03:24:40Z")
Speaking of oppressive grandeur, what the hell style is [this](http://maps.google.com/?ll=28.540921,-81.379042&spn=0.003058,0.004136&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=28.540828,-81.37904&panoid=xw70d5To7wNHqWz3QJWh5A&cbp=12,86,,0,-29.3) monstrocity in downtown Orlando? The statues are vaguely rococo but are slightly too small for the scale of everything else which is about twice as big as it has to be for human use (compare the people entering the huge gateway). Yet it has far too much glass to be Brutal. But it still feels like Tim Burton’s burrito nightmare. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/27 "2012-11-08T03:26:26Z")
I studied Brutalism quite a bit in graduate school (I have degrees in both architecture and architectural history). Threads like this are absolutely painful to me, so I’ll start slow. > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > What was behind it? How did it spread beyond totalitarian countries? It started in England in the 1950s, so all of the Nazi/Revolutionary/totalitarianism rhetoric is unnecessary. The architects Alison and Peter Smithson, the influence of Le Corbusier, and the architectural critic/historian Reyner Banham all contributed to its formation. It was Banham’s “The New Brutalism” essay which formalized the movement in 1955. I recommend google-ing it – he’s arguably the greatest architectural writer of the 20th century. Most of the building being linked to in this thread – along with your mocking rebukes and harsh, cynical words! – are of a popular style that evolved out of the original avant-garde movement. This happens a lot in architecture. The Smithsons and Banham probably wouldn’t even call a lot of these buildings “Brutalist” – there’s been a degradation in form and meaning (though I still love the style). Early Brutalism followed three tenets: “1, Formal legibility of plan; 2, clear exhibition of structure, and 3, valuation of materials for their inherent qualities ‘as found.’” The Hunstanton School by the Smithsons was its first building. It gets its name from “breton brut” – a method of concrete construction which I find absolutely beautiful – and of course its harsh aesthetic. It is not a timid and effete architectural movement, and has been compared to Jean Dubuffet and his “low art”. I suppose that’s a good start. Now, back to the regularly scheduled program of ridicule. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/28 "2012-11-08T03:37:49Z")
See, I have a knee-jerk dislike of brutalism because my college campus has several lovely brick buildings with ivy-covered walkways and trees around them with big wooden doors and brass handles and it feels old and immense and historic. In the 60s several of the buildings were torn down in order to make way for a bunch of concrete edifices by Breuer. They feel squat and thick and commercial. I understand that artistically, they are lovely pieces. But emotionally I cannot like them. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/29 "2012-11-08T03:38:55Z")
Thank you for the background on Brutalism. However, I still find it ugly. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/30 "2012-11-08T03:49:10Z")
A long time ago, I heard a talk about Brutalist architecture on NPR. One person made a comment about this [church](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3rd_Church_of_Christ_-_Christian_Science_Church_by_Matthew_Bisanz2.JPG) (also in DC) “if ever there was a building that said **“GO AWAY”** - this is it” (or something along those lines). ETA: when I was at CMU, I didn’t know anything about this type of architecture, I only knew this [building](http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~kedar/imgs/cmu/wean.jpg) (Wean Hall) was _ugly_. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/31 "2012-11-08T03:52:17Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Speaking of oppressive grandeur, what the hell style is [this](http://maps.google.com/?ll=28.540921,-81.379042&spn=0.003058,0.004136&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=28.540828,-81.37904&panoid=xw70d5To7wNHqWz3QJWh5A&cbp=12,86,,0,-29.3) monstrocity in downtown Orlando? The statues are vaguely rococo but are slightly too small for the scale of everything else which is about twice as big as it has to be for human use (compare the people entering the huge gateway). Yet it has far too much glass to be Brutal. But it still feels like Tim Burton’s burrito nightmare. That would be postmodernism – the second most reviled architectural style. Hijack! Take it to a new thread! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/32 "2012-11-08T04:03:46Z")
In fairness, though, you have to admit that brutalist buildings are usually quite practical, in that they make efficient use of space and are logically organized inside such that you can find what you’re looking for and get about your business. That’s more than you can say for many architectural styles. Now, Le Corbusier, that’s another story. Neither the style that he claimed to like, nor the things he actually designed (which, mind you, are two completely different things) have any merit at all. And he seemed obsessed with the assumption that everyone else on the planet had tastes as abysmal as his, despite abundant evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/33 "2012-11-08T04:09:12Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > A long time ago, I heard a talk about Brutalist architecture on NPR. One person made a comment about this [church](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:3rd_Church_of_Christ_-_Christian_Science_Church_by_Matthew_Bisanz2.JPG) (also in DC) “if ever there was a building that said **“GO AWAY”** - this is it” (or something along those lines). Wow. As a church, that looks like it belongs to a religion called Jesus Incorporated. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/34 "2012-11-08T04:15:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Wow. As a church, that looks like it belongs to a religion called Jesus Incorporated. I love _The Internet_. Here’s the article - [Future Of Brutalist-Designed Church Not Concrete : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93844919) I remember it wrong - it was STAY AWAY! ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/35 "2012-11-08T04:21:56Z")
The more examples of Brutalism, I see, the more I think about calling back that nice man I met on a plane who taught me interesting things about the chemistry of soap. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/36 "2012-11-08T04:29:40Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > In fairness, Brutalism can be done well. I’m quite fond of the Washington, DC metro stations, for example: [http://thelazytravelers.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/washington-metro-washington-d-c-dc123.jpg](http://thelazytravelers.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/washington-metro-washington-d-c-dc123.jpg) . And the ideals of Brutalism aren’t bad - use bare concrete to build rugged, rapidly assembled buildings with a bit of style to them. And most of the famous examples _were_ thought of as having a bit of style - the architects who started the movement had serious chops. > > That being said, I do agree with you - the results tend to be drab, and they look dated quickly. I live in Southwest DC, a few blocks from this beast: [http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.luxuryproperty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/hud-building.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.luxuryproperty.com/november-housing-scorecard-released-by-hud/hud-building/&h=333&w=500&sz=135&tbnid=DZTmZFyEWqrs3M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=\_\_oHrkY99-zDgg1haXUqoTHm0eNrs=&docid=Xdy2K6xqrQPrnM&sa=X&ei=wgKbUKPxDdTV0gHVrICYAQ&ved=0CGUQ9QEwBg&dur=919](http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://blog.luxuryproperty.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/hud-building.jpg&imgrefurl=http://blog.luxuryproperty.com/november-housing-scorecard-released-by-hud/hud-building/&h=333&w=500&sz=135&tbnid=DZTmZFyEWqrs3M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=135&zoom=1&usg=__oHrkY99-zDgg1haXUqoTHm0eNrs=&docid=Xdy2K6xqrQPrnM&sa=X&ei=wgKbUKPxDdTV0gHVrICYAQ&ved=0CGUQ9QEwBg&dur=919) That first link looks like the tunnel you go through right after your board [Space Mountain](http://www.wunderland.com/EBooks/Coasters/Coasterpics/SpaceMountain-DisneyWorld.gif) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/37 "2012-11-08T04:39:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In fairness, though, you have to admit that brutalist buildings are usually quite practical, in that they make efficient use of space and are logically organized inside such that you can find what you’re looking for and get about your business. That’s more than you can say for many architectural styles. True. Brutalism’s initial ethos required that buildings be immediately apprehensible (as an image, at least): if you see brick on the outside, you should see brick on the inside; if you use steel columns and beams, you shouldn’t hide them. One of my favorite [images](http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_load81SpzF1qzjeow.jpg) of Hunstanton is of the bathroom sinks – everything is exposed, even the water, which runs into a trough on the floor. > [@](#): > > Now, Le Corbusier, that’s another story. Neither the style that he claimed to like, nor the things he actually designed (which, mind you, are two completely different things) have **any merit at all**. Bolding mine. Unless you disapprove of almost all modern architecture, I don’t see how this can be the case. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/38 "2012-11-08T04:50:56Z")
Would [this horror](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3071/5864966006_33ca9bba5a.jpg) be considered Brutalism? It’s been given the nickname “The Beer Can” but I just find it extremely creepy. I’m not kidding when I say just googling the image made me queasy. \ ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/39 "2012-11-08T04:52:35Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I’d like to know. [Our college library](http://www.flickr.com/photos/orijinal/6779784783/) was also in the brutalist style. Ugly as hell, especially when you see it connected with the pretty and sensible [neo-Gothic library](http://www.northwestern.edu/magazine/fall2012/images/large-images/Buildings_Deering_opener_L.jpg). The brutalist library is a lot more interesting architecturally than the Gothic library. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2012, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/40 "2012-11-08T04:53:54Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Oddly, I kind of like it. Yeah, me too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303.md?page=3)