# Brutalist architecture. What were they thinking? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 8, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303 "2012-11-08T00:13:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/141 "2012-11-10T12:12:24Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Like I said, a death trap and the shittiest square in history. And it’s only the people of Rotterdam that know; in the world of architecture it’s the bees knees. ☹ I’m sure people have touched on this before in the thread, but this speaks to why architecture can be so reviled, because it’s an artistic statement by the architect, but people have to live in and _see it_ every day as well (as opposed to other types of art which you can avoid if you think they’re ugly\*). A lot of these examples would be – I don’t know if aesthetically pleasing is the right word, but striking and worth seeing as an artistic statement – but the message they evoke is not one I want to live by. You can appreciate an artistic statement in the abstract while reviling it in real life, like you may appreciate the cinematography and humor in a Quentin Tarentino movie but would not want to live in one. \*With the exception of not being able to avoid some performance or conceptual art, which is also fairly reviled. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/142 "2012-11-10T12:45:57Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I’m sure people have touched on this before in the thread, but this speaks to why architecture can be so reviled, because it’s an artistic statement by the architect, but people have to live in and _see it_ every day as well (as opposed to other types of art which you can avoid if you think they’re ugly\*). A lot of these examples would be – I don’t know if aesthetically pleasing is the right word, but striking and worth seeing as an artistic statement – but the message they evoke is not one I want to live by. You can appreciate an artistic statement in the abstract while reviling it in real life, like you may appreciate the cinematography and humor in a Quentin Tarentino movie but would not want to live in one. > > \*With the exception of not being able to avoid some performance or conceptual art, which is also fairly reviled. Hey, that gives me an idea: architects have to put on a display of their concept first. They have to have models, and show the materials (and they have to be wet too) and actors walking around on the materials etc. If it’s popular in the sense that people want to _live_ it can be set up down town. Otherwise it can just be art in a museum. Win-win. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/143 "2012-11-10T12:52:04Z")
Well said. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/144 "2012-11-10T12:55:59Z")
Seems to me the object of much of Brutalist structures is to enclose as much space as possible within a particular budget and find some way of disguising the intent. You can certainly see this aspect in the shopping centres that plague UK towns and cities - I know these are specifically money oriented equipment, but it exemplifies the point I am making. I every case, those Brutalist shopping centres have more retail space than the previous structures, however those who commission these monstrosities completely misunderstand the concept of shopping itself. The idea of ‘going to town’ is so much more than the mere functional prospect of acquiring stuff - for many of us working all week, this is a day out, a time to wander around, see and be seen, look at the latest trends in clothes, furniture and design of products and perhaps even select something with the dream of improving our lives. Now try fit that into the Brutalist scheme of things, and it is immediately apparent there is a total mismatch. The interiors of shopping centres are such that you could be in any town in any country of the world, they are so sterile, and generic. There is nothing special about visiting a ‘shopping experience’ in Manchester because its almost identical to what we have in Leeds, and that is no recommendation of Leeds at all - far from it. The reaction to this has been pretty obvious, for those who do study retail architecture, the older more ornate and decorative humanistic architecture had been allowed to run down all through the 1960’s through to the 1980’s and now city councils are ‘rediscovering’ them - though they were there all the time. This has caused them to refurbish many such areas and have given them a ‘heritage’ feel, and this works, those places are often crowded and full of the ‘eye candy’ product boutiques at very good retail prices - there is money in such work. When I look at my own city centre, it is quite noticeable that the places that struggle to attract clients and rent out space are those anodyne Brutalist shopping centres, ultimately in the retail game, Brutalism does not even make economic sense, despite the increased sales floor area it produces. If you want a stark personal experience then work out which of these shopping areas you would prefer to browse around in a Saturday afternoon with the wife and kids for a pleasant time, [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Victoria_Quarter_from_Briggate.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Victoria_Quarter_from_Briggate.jpg) [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Leeds_Victoria_Quarter_2.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Leeds_Victoria_Quarter_2.jpg) Here is your Brutalist alternative [![](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St_John's_Centre,_Leeds.jpg) ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:St_John's_Centre,_Leeds.jpg) [http://www.yourlocalweb.co.uk/images/pictures/13/48/st-johns-centre-car-park-132529.jpg](http://www.yourlocalweb.co.uk/images/pictures/13/48/st-johns-centre-car-park-132529.jpg) [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/St_John%27s_Centre_interior%2C_Leeds_%2811th_April_2011%29.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/St_John%27s_Centre_interior%2C_Leeds_%2811th_April_2011%29.jpg) These two shopping areas are literally less than 10 shopping bag laden minutes apart. I find it noteworthy that even on the website of the S John’s shopping centre, they do not have any picture galleries, I wonder why that would be? Just for comparison, here is what the St John’s centre replaced - a run down area that had not seen any significant investment for 70 years, and yet it was still more popular than the modern alternative.(and look at all the Brutal stuff in the background) [http://www.flickr.com/photos/danielrobot/215341532/](http://www.flickr.com/photos/danielrobot/215341532/) I will moderate my comments somewhat here, because in that last image, some of those Brutalist structures in the background have been demolished, but others have been refurbished and re-clad, and in fact are acceptable enough, just a change of windows and a covering up of the awful acres of concrete have made a huge difference. In some cases these refurbished and disguised Brutalist structures are very much an improvement on what had originally poorly constructed and badly maintained Victorian buildings. This then become less debate about architectural ideologies, but instead is about design and human environmental considerations, its about things being appropriate within their surroundings and for their function, a badly laid out structure is a failure at all levels - this is simply architectural incompetence. Unfortunately the Brutalist architect seems unapologetic for this incompetence, and this inflexibility coupled with an inability to be truly self critical is another reason why Brutalism is so offensive to those who are forced to utilise these huge errors of judgement. Basically, we all make mistakes and Brutalist architects refuse to do so. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/145 "2012-11-10T13:29:06Z")
Missed the edit window, that last sentence Basically, we all make mistakes and Brutalist architects refuse to do so. SHOULD READ Basically, we all make mistakes and Brutalist architects refuse to acknowledge this, perhaps they think its a sign of weakness, or that it undermines their own ideology - very much Stalinesque in outlook.Live with it or die with it, the user is wrong and never the architect. ---
**Author:** ![gracer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@gracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/146 "2012-11-10T14:49:58Z")
Oh, I don’t know. Maybe we also think that Victorian buildings are nice because only the ones that work are still standing? I can imagine that some of the nice examples of Brutalist architecture that were given in this thread will last longer than the terrible examples, so that in 100 years people will think Brutalism lovely, quaintly old-fashioned and full of character… ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/147 "2012-11-10T15:19:33Z")
> [@gracer](#): > > Oh, I don’t know. Maybe we also think that Victorian buildings are nice because only the ones that work are still standing? > > I can imagine that some of the nice examples of Brutalist architecture that were given in this thread will last longer than the terrible examples, so that in 100 years people will think Brutalism lovely, quaintly old-fashioned and full of character… Yup. Laver’s Law works for architecture as well as fashion. Just takes longer. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/148 "2012-11-10T22:03:26Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > I have been anally gang raped by a couple of brutalist builings. I had offices in this [rat’s maze disguised as a bunker](http://www.flickr.com/photos/lu_/211693746/in/gallery-pauldineen-72157622581100334/) and in this [Klingon war bird](http://www.raisethehammer.org/static/images/brutalism_01.jpg) at the same time, which is more than a soul can take. The former was designed as a maze on the inside, such that I often had difficulty finding my own office if I did not enter by the usual door, and my students had so much difficulty finding my office that I had to hold office hours in another non-brutalist building next door. The latter, a library, had its stacks laid out in narrow triangles surrounding elevators that had long lines due to being grossly overcrowded, rather than a wide rectilinear grid for the stacks and many more elevators, so it took more far more time than it should have to find books. In other words, there was nothing honest or simple or efficient about either place. Adding that to the lack of creature comforts such as daylight ([Bat Boy](http://www.bloodsprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/bat-boy.jpg) must be a brutalist architect), and the overal dinginess of the structures, it resulted in brutal buildings that failed in their ostensible functions but did succeed in brutalizing their occupants such as me. > > Many other brutalist buildings have inflicted themselves upon me, such as this [bunker of gloom](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/D_B_Weldon_Library_University_of_Western_Ontario_1.jpg), with its [interior](http://www.flickr.com/photos/mytvc15/320573490/) very similar to that of a modern urban sewer, but fortunately I have only had to visit them regularly rather than inhabit them. > > Some architecture works nicely, in that it provides an environment that meets the wants and needs of the people who use it. Some architecture fails due to the architects pressing forward with their vision contrary to the wants and needs of the people. Brutalist architecture usually fails for this reason, leaving it with a half-century legacy of disgust. > > It’s really quite simple. Take a look at a concrete bridge or concrete sewer or concrete bunker. They are honest, simple and efficient. Would you want to live under a bridge or in a sewer or in a bunker? No. Well that is the fundamental problem that brutalism faces when trying to persuade people to inhabit bridges and sewers and bunkers disguised as buildings. Heh, Robarts Library - truly it treats the student with the contempt he or she deserves. 😃 Basing a library on a triangular plan ensures that books are difficult to find; no windows creates a feeling of gloom; bare concrete completes the dungeon-like effect. I can’t think of one good thing about “Fort Book” - it gives the impression of being deliberately designed to study the effects of stress of its hapless users. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/149 "2012-11-10T22:08:31Z")
The more I look at these pictures of “brutalist” buildings, the more I see a character creeping in and around them with an arsenal of weapons fighting something like the Combine from Half Life 2. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/150 "2012-11-10T22:39:16Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > You used the term in post 20 when you said “These are serious buildings, with serious business going on inside them. There is no room for humanity here.” > Is it too much to say what you mean by this very connotative word? How about, “Shut up and do this boring shit cause we paid you money, drone!” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/151 "2012-11-10T23:33:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, Robarts Library - truly it treats the student with the contempt he or she deserves. 😃 > > Basing a library on a triangular plan ensures that books are difficult to find; no windows creates a feeling of gloom; bare concrete completes the dungeon-like effect. I can’t think of one good thing about “Fort Book” - it gives the impression of being deliberately designed to study the effects of stress of its hapless users. No wonder the fellow it was named after killed himself less than a decade after it was opened. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/152 "2012-11-11T01:00:41Z")
I find about 1 in 30 appealing. I’ve long considered the [Long Lines Building](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33_Thomas_Street) (aka 33 Thomas Street) among the better examples: another one with no windows (no wimpy, half-hearted Brutalism here). ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/153 "2012-11-11T01:06:00Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I find about 1 in 30 appealing. I’ve long considered the [Long Lines Building](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33_Thomas_Street) (aka 33 Thomas Street) among the better examples: another one with no windows (no wimpy, half-hearted Brutalism here). Damn, that looks nice. I note that it seems to use a kind of rectangular cladding or at least break up the concrete surface into smaller shapes. Is it polished concrete? The light doesn’t reflect off of it the way it does on most Brute buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/154 "2012-11-11T01:31:02Z")
Of course it’s not an office building primarily for use by people – it’s a hardened industrial building designed for telecom switching. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/155 "2012-11-11T01:31:35Z")
Thanks for the discovery Xema. 33 Thomas Street is a very nice looking skydick: [http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1429/1331825815\_7f9d465e7f\_z.jpg](http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1429/1331825815_7f9d465e7f_z.jpg) [![](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BYrLeOUG7TU/Tnd_o0fVdpI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/jIcuFJloCEM/s1600/IMG_2236.jpg) ](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BYrLeOUG7TU/Tnd_o0fVdpI/AAAAAAAAAFQ/jIcuFJloCEM/s1600/IMG_2236.jpg) [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/33_Thomas_Street_December_2009.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/33_Thomas_Street_December_2009.jpg) Muffin, Yeah, I’m sure the people inside wish they could get some sunlight. Does anypony know if the interior layout is easy to use? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/156 "2012-11-11T01:48:49Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > (no wimpy, half-hearted Brutalism here). Oh, I dunno–the exterior walls are clad in granite. That gives it a very nice, shiny, unmarred finish. Isn’t _bare_ concrete nearly fundamental to the Brutalist aesthetic? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/157 "2012-11-11T01:49:40Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Does anypony know if the interior layout is easy to use? I was under the impression that few people work inside of it, except to service machines. Maybe that’s not true anymore though. I couldn’t find a photo of any interior floor. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/158 "2012-11-11T04:34:42Z")
**MichaelEmouse** : good photos. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/159 "2012-11-11T06:08:34Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > **MichaelEmouse** : good photos. Yup: [http://pcdn.500px.net/4129213/c6530cfcf769633ab27f319f86556c4705a3d594/4.jpg](http://pcdn.500px.net/4129213/c6530cfcf769633ab27f319f86556c4705a3d594/4.jpg) If you look at it long enough, you start seeing the tiles as the ground. Oh, how I wish I were in Colorado or Washington! ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2012, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303/160 "2012-11-11T06:55:12Z")
So, do you guys thing [The Ghost Writer](http://www.google.com/search?num=10&hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=782&bih=715&q=ghost+writer+house&oq=ghost+writer+house&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l2j0i5i24.1072.5463.0.5589.26.20.4.2.2.0.82.1205.20.20.0...0.0...1ac.1.4_DAgWmTD64) house fits? And if so, is it a good-looking example or drab and souless to you? Sometimes I think I’m on everyone’s ignore list. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/brutalist-architecture-what-were-they-thinking/640303.md?page=9)