# Bryan Ekers Sociopolitical impact of Christianity on Pagan Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271 "2008-12-08T17:47:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/61 "2008-12-11T20:51:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If the strength of the argument is “look at what DID happen”, well, then, let’s look at what actually did happen. When, where and why was the first Christian persecution for heresy? When, where and why did Christians eventually stop persecuting for heresy (assuming they did)? How much did Christianity itself change in that interval? I am under the impression that the version of history taught in public schools is tilted against Christians and Catholics in particular. This can be seen in many ways, and in fact two (the Galileo myth and the false portrait of the Inquisition) have already been seen in this thread. But while the things we teach kids about the Church are worth debunking, there’s also the problem of the things we leave out. Perhaps the most prominent is this: throughout its history, the church has been in conflict with groups that want stricter rules, tougher enforcement, less tolerance and less individuality. Consider the Church’s conflict with the Gnostics at the very beginning, the Manichees in the third, fourth, and fifth centuries, the forces of Islam from the seventh century onward, the Cathars in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, and the Calvinists from the Reformation until quite recently, to name just a few. In our day and age it’s automatically assumed that prosecuting for heresy was always wrong, because disputes about heresy were always just about religion. But that attitude flows from the assumption that religion is not really important because religious beliefs don’t influence the things that are important. Realistically, though, heretics were generally bad people. The Cathars, for example, heavily promoted violence, suicide, child abuse, and other things now generally agreed to be bad. I think that virtually everyone alive today, knowing the facts, would agree that we’re better off rid of them. > [@](#): > > ITR has a charmingly cheery view of church inquisitors, I must say. I’m sure the Knights Templar would’ve gotten good chuckle out of it. Are you asserting that any of my facts are false, or should my view not be based on the facts? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/62 "2008-12-11T20:52:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > It looks like it’s time for some myth-busting. I agree. I suggest you consider busting many of your own myths. The professional discourse on this subject is very long and very interesting. I would suggest a few authors in particular: Caroline Bynum, RW Southern, and RI Moore. The following is an excerpt of the preface of **The Formation of a Persecuting Society** : > [@](#): > > …The first of these propositions, relating as it does to the relationship between authority and society, and raising the question whether religioius unity was in fact necessary – as is often asserted – to the cohesiveness of medievall society, is an extremely complex one, and will be addressed in the last two chapters. **The second is almost self-evidently false**. Religious persecution had, of course, been familiar in the Roman Empire, and remained so in the Byzantine world throughout its history. But in the West, far from being ‘normal’ in medieval society, it faded away with the Roman empire and did not reappear until the eleventh century; even then, as the first chapter will remind us in detail, **it became regular and established only gradually during the next hundred years or so**. Of course, it might be argued, and is almost universally assumed, that this is because there were no heretics in the medieval West before that time, and that if there had been they would have been persecuted. As we shall see in chapter 2, neither of these propositions is so obvious, or so simple, as it sounds., But even if they were true it would remain the casse that **the eleventh and twelfth centuries saw what has turned out to be a permanent change in Western society. Persecution became habitual.** That is to say not simply that individuals were subject to violence, but that deliberate and socially sanctioned violence began to be directed through _established governmental, judicial and social institutions_, against groups of people designed by general characteristics such as race, religion, or way of life; and that membership of such groups itself came to be regarded as justifying these attacks. He further notes that “historians have been assiduous in chronicling and analysing the appalling records of the inquisition of the later middle ages, the witch hunters of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, the totalitarian regimes of the twentieth, and numberless others.” As it turns out, I spent a fair amount of time as an undergraduate translating the records of the late medieval inquisition. It makes an interesting read. Trust me. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/63 "2008-12-11T20:55:45Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The Cathars, for example, heavily promoted violence, suicide, child abuse, and other things now generally agreed to be bad. I think that virtually everyone alive today, knowing the facts, would agree that we’re better off rid of them. This is one of the most disgusting things I think I have ever read in GD in my eight years on the SDMB. The Albigensian crusade was a thinly veiled exercise in French imperialism, aimed at crushing the independence of Occitania. For those playing along at home, consider [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_crusade). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/64 "2008-12-11T20:56:49Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, agreed, the reality and the idealism are different. However, a philosophical ideal has some impact on the society in which it is inculcated no? Sure. I’m not denying Christianity had an effect. I just disagree that it was an absolutely critical effect in human development, or that the human race would necessarily be worse off without it. > [@](#): > > My answer is ‘impossible to say’. Yes if in your fictional account all the right conditions were met the the hypothetical situation where it did happen without Christianity, yes it could happen hypothetically. Well it’s entertaining but we can define things any way we want. The great thing about being a fantasy author is that the society works exactly how you say it does. Well, it’s not _entirely_ fictional. There were thriving societies with codified legal systems that had little or no contact with or influence from Christianity. As I stated earlier, paraphrasing Jared Diamond, China could have become the dominant global culture, but during a critical period (~1479-1567) fell prey to factional divisions and for short-term political gain became isolationist. Is this unlucky timing, or proof of the superiority of Christianity? Both? Neither? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/65 "2008-12-11T21:35:01Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > A few centuries later it was the Puritans who first made free, public education available for everybody. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Realistically, though, heretics were generally bad people. I’ll let the two of you fight it out and get back to us when the dispute is settled. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/66 "2008-12-11T21:35:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I have to disagree with this conclusion. When, if ever, was there a “unified European identity”? Such identity certainly didn’t stop them from engaging in near-continuous warfare for the last 2000 years. And I’m having some trouble reconciling Christian “anyone can join” inclusiveness with the rise of the nation-state. The concepts seem contradictory to me, and the nation-state owes quite a bit to improvements in weapons technology whereby territory could be defended by peasant-armies with force multipliers like the bow, the crossbow, gunpowder etc. It’s not either/or. Run with me for a bit and take the ‘cultural advancement’ as technology idea. Cultural cohesion systems are as important as technological achievements. The unified European identity is something that has come about recently. My point is that it follows the lines of ‘Christendom’, the greatest difficulty has been the assimiliation of Muslim Turkey. The church provided the only thing representing a trans-feudal bureaucracy providing state services prior to the functioning of the state. Yes, the realization of the nation-state is also the story of movement away from the church, but prior to its arrival the church provided that framework. ‘The Rise and Decline of the State’ by Martin van Creveld is a great book on the subject. > [@](#): > > ITR has a charmingly cheery view of church inquisitors, I must say. I’m sure the Knights Templar would’ve gotten good chuckle out of it. Yes, it is kind of amusing. Speaking of which a local library my friend is a trustee of just acquired one of the copies of the Vaticans records of the Templar trial. It’s in latin so I cannot access it but it would be interesting to read a translation. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/67 "2008-12-11T21:37:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sure. I’m not denying Christianity had an effect. I just disagree that it was an absolutely critical effect in human development, or that the human race would necessarily be worse off without it. Why must it be necessary to diminish the impact of Christianity? ‘Necessary’ in this case is a very loaded term. > [@](#): > > Well, it’s not _entirely_ fictional. There were thriving societies with codified legal systems that had little or no contact with or influence from Christianity. As I stated earlier, paraphrasing Jared Diamond, China could have become the dominant global culture, but during a critical period (~1479-1567) fell prey to factional divisions and for short-term political gain became isolationist. Is this unlucky timing, or proof of the superiority of Christianity? Both? Neither? China may yet become the dominant culture. But it will be impacted by western influence. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/68 "2008-12-11T21:38:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, it is kind of amusing. Speaking of which a local library my friend is a trustee of just acquired one of the copies of the Vaticans records of the Templar trial. It’s in latin so I cannot access it but it would be interesting to read a translation. Do you have a transcription or a soft copy? If it is not too long, I would be happy to translate it if it is sufficiently interesting. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/69 "2008-12-11T21:39:50Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > This is one of the most disgusting things I think I have ever read in GD in my eight years on the SDMB. Is it false, or is it disgusting for me to tell the truth? Bringing in some real history from sources better than Wikipedia (I apologize in advance if that’s also disgusting): > [@](#): > > Cathars rejected sex as a continuation of the human soul’s entrapment in earth-bound carnal evil. According to Cathars, marriage was a form of prostitution. Children were born as demons until they could be consciously lead to choose salvation in the Cathar path. Cathars believed that the human soul could pass on its journey through animal life, thus they were vegetarians: they did not eat meat, eggs, cheese or any fat except vegetable oil and fish. The Cathars rejected oath taking and violence in principle; they conveniently hired mercenaries to do violence in their behalf. > > … > > Catharism was in some ways darkly hostile to maternity and family. Pregnant credents were admonished that they carried demons in their bellies. A perfecta advised a follower to pray to God that she be liberated from the demon in her belly; another warned a pregnant woman that if she died in pregnancy she could not be saved.2 Because the Cathars believed that baptism had to be consciously understood, children who died in infancy could not be considered as saved either. (From historian Peter Vronsky.) ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/70 "2008-12-11T21:41:22Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Do you have a transcription or a soft copy? If it is not too long, I would be happy to translate it if it is sufficiently interesting. No, I have neither, it was a recent aquisition. I could get you access to it though. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/71 "2008-12-11T21:46:27Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Hume was born in 1711, at which time Christian movements such as the Quakers had been working to oppose slavery for a long time. The Methodist movement was started by Wesley brothers in the 1730’s and based on explicity Christian demands for an end to slavery. It was that movement that eventually brought the end of the slave trade in the British Empire, and many other examples social progress. Many people from the Church of England and the Presbyterian church were involved as well. Yep, all them lousy trouble-making heretics. Bad folk, the lot of them… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/72 "2008-12-11T22:07:43Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Is it false, or is it disgusting for me to tell the truth? You have no monopoly on the truth. For what it’s worth, Peter Vronsky is not a medieval historian. He is a filmmaker who writes about serial killers. I am willing to concede that he has some expertise in the history of Canada, but he has no credentials whatsoever in medieval history and does not appear even to understand the contemporary sources, most of whom were hostile to the Cathars. Conveniently, they were also French, hostile to the party of Raymond of Tolouse. As it turns out, it appears Vronski was drawing on the _Historia albigensis_ of a monk of the abbey of Vaux-de-Cernay. His descriptions of the Cathars are, to say the least colorful. He can reliably be placed in the army of Simon de Montfort, and his narrative continues after the baron’s death. _Heresies of the High Middle Ages_, ed. Wakefield and Evans, has an excellent excerpt. But most important is their commantary on the _Historia_: > [@](#): > > The author had robust prejudices, which, coupled with his enthusiasm for the miraculous, might lead the reader to question the authenticity of his work…His biases are so evident and forthright that they may be readily discounted by the reader. He had an excellent understanding of the theological underpinnings of Catharism, but his descriptions leave much to be desired. Here is an example, excerpted in the ever-trusty Wakefield & Evans: > [@](#): > > Now, it must be understood that certain of the heretics were called the Perfect or the Good Men; the others were called the believers of heretics. Those who were called Perfect wore a black mantle; they falsely claimed that they kept themselves chaste; they wholly refused to eat meat, eggs, or cheese; they sought to give the impression of never telling a lie, when they lied constantly, especially concerning God; and they held that one should never for any reason take an oath. Those were called believers of heretics who, while living in the world, did not strive to attain the life of the perfected, but hoped nonetheless to achieve salvation in their faith; they differed, indeed, in their manner of life, but in faith (or rather, in infidelity, they were at one. **They felt, in truth, more secure and unbridled in their sinning because they believed that they would be saved, without restitution of ill-gotten gains, without confession or penance, so long as they were able to receive the imposition of hands by their officials.** This goes on and on, becoming more over-the-top as it goes. It appears that Vronski accepted works such as these at face value and failed to do the obvious discounting. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/73 "2008-12-11T22:14:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, I have neither, it was a recent aquisition. I could get you access to it though. Yeah, actually, that would be awesome. I am sure an English translation already exists somewhere, given the subject matter’s popularity. But I would love to take a look at the real thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/74 "2008-12-11T22:20:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Why must it be necessary to diminish the impact of Christianity? ‘Necessary’ in this case is a very loaded term. All things are relative, of course, but I don’t think “decline to exaggerate” qualifies as “diminish.” And how is “necessary” loaded? I’ll say it plain: It’s entirely conceivable to me that had Christianity not taken hold or had taken a different form (as could have happened during any of several dozen critical points in its history), or if the Huns (~450), the Muslims (~632–732) or the Mongols (~1205-1312) had consolidated their conquests into stable empires, Europe could easily be as advanced socially and technologically as it is now, or it may be centuries behind or ahead. I don’t see anything exactly specific to Christianity that requires social advancement, especially since nonChristian cultures also exhibit advancement. > [@](#): > > China may yet become the dominant culture. But it will be impacted by western influence. I have to assume western influence will be impacted by Chinese influence as well, but the Chinese won’t win by becoming more Christian - they may win by becoming more capitalist, which as I understand it, is not an early Christian ideal or, if you prefer, emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/75 "2008-12-11T22:23:33Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Yeah, actually, that would be awesome. I am sure an English translation already exists somewhere, given the subject matter’s popularity. But I would love to take a look at the real thing. Well the records were only released publically within the last two years. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/76 "2008-12-11T22:28:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well the records were only released publically within the last two years. Which trial? Proceedings from several volumes of templar trials in several cities have been published for centuries. The most recent English addition to the bibliography, to my knowledge, is Malcom Barber and Keith Bate, _The Templars_, in the Manchester Medieval Sources series. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/77 "2008-12-11T22:29:56Z")
Semi-hijack. > [@Maeglin](#): > > The professional discourse on this subject is very long and very interesting. I would suggest a few authors in particular: Caroline Bynum, RW Southern, and RI Moore. The following is an excerpt of the preface of **The Formation of a Persecuting Society** : Any opinion on Mark Gregory Pegg? I was recently trying to slog through his new work on the Albigensian Crusade without much success ( I don’t think much of him as a writer ). Haven’t finished it, but I’m curious how unorthodox his views are considered re: the nonexistence of “Catharism” as a discrete movement. I’ve read a couple of other general works on the topic like Malcolm Lambert’s, but it’s not an area I’m well versed in. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/78 "2008-12-11T22:30:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > All things are relative, of course, but I don’t think “decline to exaggerate” qualifies as “diminish.” And how is “necessary” loaded? I’ll say it plain: No one is exaggerating here, we are attempting to become more educated on the matter. Neither of us is terribly knowledgeable here. > [@](#): > > It’s entirely conceivable to me that had Christianity not taken hold or had taken a different form (as could have happened during any of several dozen critical points in its history), or if the Huns (~450), the Muslims (~632–732) or the Mongols (~1205-1312) had consolidated their conquests into stable empires, Europe could easily be as advanced socially and technologically as it is now, or it may be centuries behind or ahead. I don’t see anything exactly specific to Christianity that requires social advancement, especially since nonChristian cultures also exhibit advancement. I cannot conceive of them in any meaningful way because it’s speculative fiction. Christianity is ‘necessary’ because it’s the only religion that actually dominated Europe for over a thousand years. > [@](#): > > I have to assume western influence will be impacted by Chinese influence as well, but the Chinese won’t win by becoming more Christian - they may win by becoming more capitalist, which as I understand it, is not an early Christian ideal or, if you prefer, emphasis. Well there is a prevalent movement of Christian conversion in China going on right now. Nope, Capitalism is not, but the point for me is giving Christianity it’s due, and to get away from these inane arguments where people try to redact Christianity from history mainly because they find Evangelicals repulsive. I would like to see, “Christianity is the scourge of all society and never did nuthin’ right.”, arguments shouted down for lowering the discourse, by atheists and theists alike. Not because people agree with Christianity going forward, but because they can honestly look at the flow of history and recognize Christianity’s place in it. People talk about Christianity being unecessary going forward but I don’t see much in the way of a secular Red Cross. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/79 "2008-12-11T22:31:20Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Which trial? Proceedings from several volumes of templar trials in several cities have been published for centuries. The most recent English addition to the bibliography, to my knowledge, is Malcom Barber and Keith Bate, _The Templars_, in the Manchester Medieval Sources series. I don’t know it’s precise pedigree, but I think it includes DeMolay’s trial. For some reason the church sealed these records up for 700 years. I don’t know what common material they contain with other sources. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2008, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271/80 "2008-12-11T22:41:53Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Semi-hijack. > > Any opinion on Mark Gregory Pegg? I was recently trying to slog through his new work on the Albigensian Crusade without much success ( I don’t think much of him as a writer ). Haven’t finished it, but I’m curious how unorthodox his views are considered re: the nonexistence of “Catharism” as a discrete movement. I’ve read a couple of other general works on the topic like Malcolm Lambert’s, but it’s not an area I’m well versed in. To be honest, I am not familiar with his work as it is too recent. I was training to be a historian of the medieval church but life took me elsewhere in 2000. I have not read very much new work on the subject since then and am not in the best position to evaluate it. I do feel knowledgeable enough to take positions on the obvious trash, though. More useful than my own knowledge is Wakefield & Evans and RI Moore. They are the cure for all sorts of wrong belief. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bryan-ekers-sociopolitical-impact-of-christianity-on-pagan-europe/476271.md?page=5)