# Buchanan suggests we need an "American Spring" if Trump loses **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [August 13, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686 "2016-08-13T18:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/21 "2016-08-13T20:09:03Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > But if we’re talking about a Pat Buchanan idea I’d suggest thinking twice or more before even considering it. I wish you had posted this earlier. It’s too late now - I called everybody already and American Spring is a go. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/22 "2016-08-13T20:10:22Z")
From that same direct source: [QUOTE=Pat Buchanan] Our CIA, NGOs and National Endowment for Democracy all beaver away for “regime change” in faraway lands whose rulers displease us. How do we effect “regime change” here at home? … Would this really be what a majority of Americans voted for in this most exciting of presidential races? “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable,” said John F. Kennedy. The 1960s and early 1970s were a time of social revolution in America, and President Nixon, by ending the draft and ending the Vietnam war, presided over what one columnist called the “cooling of America.” But if Hillary Clinton takes power, and continues America on her present course, which a majority of Americans rejected in the primaries, there is going to a bad moon rising. [/QUOTE] No, no resorting to calling for violence there… ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/23 "2016-08-13T20:27:09Z")
> [@](#): > > …but a prediction that people aren’t going to be happy with a process that gives the win to the Consummate Insider when so much of the country wanted an outsider… …when **SO MUCH** of the country…? Then they need reminding in a democracy it is the majority that see power, NOT ‘so many’! A majority! It’s getting this bad now, I think, because we’re really witnessing the death throes of a doomed creature! ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/24 "2016-08-13T20:32:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > No, no resorting to calling for violence there… Yeah. He had every opportunity to say “peaceful protest is the way to deal with this.” But he said no such thing. In order to win plaudits from the “pry my cold dead hands” crowd, he chose to chest-thump about how illegitimate any government _has_ to be if it doesn’t fit with his own political views–and to cheer on attempts to overthrow such a “rotten” state. The very fact that he straight-facedly posits Donald Trump–Donald Trump!–as the Tribune of the People, reveals the cynicism of his posturing. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/25 "2016-08-13T20:45:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you read the whole piece that he wrote (I linked to it earlier), you’ll see that he’s not talking about a rigged election (as in the actual vote count in Nov), but the entire process of how we elect our leaders being controlled by “the elites” not only of both parties but “the media”, etc: Again, you are just talking like if we should consider that Pat wrote in a vaccum. No, we should not ignore what is making Pat and others like him to support Trump. And did link to this already: > [@](#): > > **Posted by Patrick [del]Star[/del] Buchanan.** > > And if, as the polls show we might, we get Clinton — and TPP, and amnesty, and endless migrations of Third World peoples who consume more tax dollars than they generate, and who will soon swamp the Republicans’ coalition — what was 2016 all about? > > Would this really be what a majority of Americans voted for in this most exciting of presidential races? > > **“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable,” said John F. Kennedy.** > > The 1960s and early 1970s were a time of social revolution in America, and President Nixon, by ending the draft and ending the Vietnam war, presided over what one columnist called the “cooling of America.” > > **But if Hillary Clinton takes power, and continues America on her present course, which a majority of Americans rejected in the primaries, there is going to be a bad moon rising.** > > And the new protesters in the streets will not be overprivileged children from Ivy League campuses. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/26 "2016-08-13T20:49:44Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > [Pat Buchanan says if Trump loses, it means American democracy is 'fraudulent' and 'rotten'](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/8/12/1559583/-Pat-Buchanan-says-if-Trump-loses-it-means-American-democracy-is-fraudulent-and-rotten) > > This is now getting dangerously past the line of the occasional right wing blowhard fall victim to momentary hyperbole. We now have a major presidential candidate and now a former presidential candidate and veteran journalist essentially de-legitimizing all democrats and progressives in American society. > > Over the past week, we’ve had a major party’s nominee suggest, implicitly and even explicitly, that the political opposition, if elected, is going to ignore the constitution and rule by fiat, that they are absolutely going to cheat in order to win the election, that they created a terrorist organization that is threatening the homeland, and that perhaps the only thing that can stop these demonic traitors is violence. > > Folks, this is not going away. Not only is it not going away, I predict that more and more of the voices among the right will compete with each other to see who can outdo whom when it comes to propagating outrageous falsehoods. I don’t think it takes a particularly high level of intellect to see that we could end up with millions of people not only doubting the outcome of what are presumably free and fair elections, but inspired to correct the ‘mistake’ with force. > > Now faced with almost certain defeat at the polls for the third consecutive time and confronted with the reality of unfavorable demographic shifts, the right wing in this country is attempting to use the only card they have left: they are basically trying to throw out the rule book. If they can’t win within the system, they will simply say that the system is rigged. They’re basically saying: we don’t care who the winner is. > > It’s a not a very long step from “If the liberals win, it must be because they cheated” to “Liberals shouldn’t exist.” If this doesn’t terrify you, it should. Many demonize conservatives, libertarians, etc in the same way as well. Where’s the outrage over that? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/27 "2016-08-13T20:56:08Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Many demonize conservatives, libertarians, etc in the same way as well. Where’s the outrage over that? As Trump is the leader of the Republicans the fact that is that the top leadership is the one doing the demonizing; that should be a bigger cause of outrage. As it is the normalization of that demonization among Republicans that was indeed just seen before in extremist websites. Point being that you can indeed point at liberals that demonize, but that is really an exercise in nut picking, on the other hand many Republicans have decided that they will tolerating and normalize what the nuts in their side were harping about. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/28 "2016-08-13T20:56:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > From that same direct source: > > No, no resorting to calling for violence there… Well the Kennedy quote is a little ominous but I don’t see what’s violent about the rest of it. He’s evoking the mass protests of the 60’s. You left out the last bit which I found amusing: > [@](#): > > And the new protesters in the streets will not be over-privileged children from Ivy League campuses. Says the Georgetown and Columbia University graduate, son of a partner in an accounting firm. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/29 "2016-08-13T21:00:57Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > Trump has a very self-interested reason to start the pre-excuses for his loss, but it’s not going to generate any traction in the Republican party as a whole. The Republican Party, as a whole, nominated a white supremacist who has spent the last week telling his cultists that he is being cheated out of his rightful victory. The Republican Party, as a whole, has refused to withdraw their support and endorsements of Donald Trump, their chosen nominee. The Republican Party, as a whole, is still trying to embrace Trump’s unhinged supporters because the Republican Party, as a whole, can’t win without Trump’s unhinged supporters’ votes. The Republican Party, as a whole, has not moved to distance itself from the idea that extra-electoral regime change is needed here in Ohio. You Republicans own this mess. All of it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/30 "2016-08-13T21:03:07Z")
There have been numerous examples of our promoting ‘regime change,’ and not many of them have been peaceful. Combined with the subsequent section, it sure sounds like an allusion to violence to me. And it’s certainly not so reactionary that you couldn’t see it coming out of Buchanan’s mouth. It’s there for those who want to find it. And that’s the key phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/31 "2016-08-13T21:08:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Many demonize conservatives, libertarians, etc in the same way as well. Where’s the outrage over that? You mean those conservatives who gerrymander and come up with voter registration laws that specifically and disproportionately target populations who vote Democratic? Naah, they wouldn’t do that. Except that they very provably have. Libertarians are a splinter group to start with. The only ‘demonization’ of them that I see is laughing at the general theme of looniness that runs through a lot of their supporters. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/32 "2016-08-13T21:17:35Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Well the Kennedy quote is a little ominous but I don’t see what’s violent about the rest of it. He’s evoking the mass protests of the 60’s. And Pat is counting on people like you to not notice the whistle that others will hear. Bad moon rising refers to a very violent or destructive event that is (the violent end of the world in the original) coming. > **[Bad Moon Rising](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Moon_Rising_%28song%29)** > > "Bad Moon Rising" is a song written by John Fogerty and performed by Creedence Clearwater Revival. It was the lead single from their album Green River and was released on April 16, 1969 four months before the album. The song peaked at No. 2 on the Billboard Hot 100 chart on 28 June 1969 and reached No. 1 on the UK Singles Chart for three weeks in September of that year (see 1969 in music). It was CCR's second gold single. > The song has been recorded by at least 20 different artists, in styles r... > [@](#): > > Fogerty reportedly wrote “Bad Moon Rising” after watching The Devil and Daniel Webster. Inspired by a scene in the film involving a hurricane, Fogerty claims the song is about “the apocalypse that was going to be visited upon us.”[2] IIRC also from the bible when the rising moon turns to blood you are going to have a very bad time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/33 "2016-08-13T21:37:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I have to agree that a call for \_\_\_\_\_ Spring is not a call for a violent revolution. It is a call for a government overthrow though. Now if that’s non-violent I can’t say it’s wrong if it has the support of the people. But if we’re talking about a Pat Buchanan idea I’d suggest thinking twice or more before even considering it. Almost. Again, he’s making the same point that the Princeton folks are making-- American democracy does not work anymore. It’s “the elite” that he’s ranting against. He’s not saying it’s just “the government”, but corporations and the media, too. So yeah, he’s “calling for” (or maybe more accurately “predicting”) an overthrow of the government-- that angry Middle America is going to come out of this election mad as hell and they won’t be taking it anymore!! And I can see we’re not talking about dog whistles. Those famous things that require no proof, and so cannot be argued against. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/34 "2016-08-13T21:41:54Z")
Uh, ok. That seems like a slightly over the top reading. While Fogerty may have used the word “apocalypse” 20 years later in an interview, it doesn’t really make sense to “not go out tonight” if it’s the violent end of the world. Most people just think the phrase means “bad times coming” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/35 "2016-08-13T21:54:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Many demonize conservatives, libertarians, etc in the same way as well. Where’s the outrage over that? You. ---
**Author:** ![DonLogan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@DonLogan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonLogan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/36 "2016-08-13T22:08:19Z")
[Full Spectrum Operations in the Homeland](http://smallwarsjournal.com/jrnl/art/full-spectrum-operations-in-the-homeland-a-%E2%80%9Cvision%E2%80%9D-of-the-future) ---
**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/37 "2016-08-13T22:15:37Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > The Republican Party, as a whole, has not moved to distance itself from the idea that extra-electoral regime change is needed here in Ohio. I suspect that that Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and Reince Prebus would need 26 hours in each day if they denounced each and every one of Trump’s outrageous statements. But he hasn’t seemed to keep repeating his rigged comments in the past few days, unless there just hasn’t been an updated news story covering it. His latest statements seem to even include him acknowledge the possibility of losing without voter fraud and taking a “long, long vacation.” Ultimately, the Republicans in power know that complaining and whining about voter fraud ahead of time can be enough to pass a law (that may get struck down), but is not a particularly appealing or persuasive argument to the public as a whole. Especially when they’re the ones in power controlling Congress and the majority of state governorships and legislatures. Given this situation, I think even a significant number of Republicans recognize baseless whining from someone afraid of losing when they see it. I imagine most of the Republican party leadership is just going to remain silent and hope the whole “rigged” comments go away. No, it’s not principled or courageous or living up to their duties to safeguard the legitimacy of the U.S. Government since they control one of the branches and want both of the others. But it’s politics. > [@](#): > > You Republicans own this mess. All of it. Not a Republican. Two-time independent Obama voter who will be voting for Hillary (reluctantly). ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/38 "2016-08-13T22:18:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Almost. Again, he’s making the same point that the Princeton folks are making-- American democracy does not work anymore. It’s “the elite” that he’s ranting against. He’s not saying it’s just “the government”, but corporations and the media, too. > > So yeah, he’s “calling for” (or maybe more accurately “predicting”) an overthrow of the government-- that angry Middle America is going to come out of this election mad as hell and they won’t be taking it anymore!! > > And I can see we’re not talking about dog whistles. Those famous things that require no proof, and so cannot be argued against. Dunno about anyone else, but I clearly was. Is there a possibility that someone could read those comments as violent? Clearly yes. That’s the only ‘proof’ that’s necessary. Are you claiming that it’s impossible to read that as condoning violence? If you aren’t, are you claiming that there’s no one who could possibly read it as a call to action? People who, say, are already predisposed to see and act in such a way? Like, ooh, and I’m just spitballing here, survival/gun nuts? Skinheads? So-called ‘militias?’ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/39 "2016-08-13T22:23:58Z")
So far as an American Spring for Tight Rightys, sure, that’s their right. Got a bunch of books about nonviolent resistance, glad to lend them. And if they are tear-gassed and thumped by the cops, I will be right down here _toot sweet_ to renounce, denounce and condemn. If I were a better person, i would not be chuckling, but who wants to go to Heaven, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2016, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686/40 "2016-08-13T22:28:48Z")
> [@ganthet](#): > > I suspect that that Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, and Reince Prebus would need 26 hours in each day if they denounced each and every one of Trump’s outrageous statements. But he hasn’t seemed to keep repeating his rigged comments in the past few days, unless there just hasn’t been an updated news story covering it. His latest statements seem to even include him acknowledge the possibility of losing without voter fraud and taking a “long, long vacation.” > > Ultimately, the Republicans in power know that complaining and whining about voter fraud ahead of time can be enough to pass a law (that may get struck down), but is not a particularly appealing or persuasive argument to the public as a whole. Especially when they’re the ones in power controlling Congress and the majority of state governorships and legislatures. Given this situation, I think even a significant number of Republicans recognize baseless whining from someone afraid of losing when they see it. > > I imagine most of the Republican party leadership is just going to remain silent and hope the whole “rigged” comments go away. No, it’s not principled or courageous or living up to their duties to safeguard the legitimacy of the U.S. Government since they control one of the branches and want both of the others. But it’s politics. > > Not a Republican. Two-time independent Obama voter who will be voting for Hillary (reluctantly). The rigged comments aren’t going away. He has posted a form on his website asking for volunteers in Pennsylvania to come out and “independently verify” that the voting isn’t rigged. He said again at his most recent stump speech in Altoona that the only way he can lose is if Pennsylvania cheats. > **[Trump campaign doubles down on election fraud claims | CNN Politics](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2016/08/12/politics/donald-trump-pennsylvania-cheating/index.html)** > > Donald Trump and his campaign are increasingly casting doubt on the legitimacy of the presidential election. Frankly the fact that it seems like they are going away is sort of terrifying. This was pretty big news locally though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buchanan-suggests-we-need-an-american-spring-if-trump-loses/762686.md?page=3)