# Buddhism feels like a chain for me **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 13, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878 "2019-05-13T01:37:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/61 "2019-05-14T04:22:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > **Machinaforce** : what is it you _want?_ > > No, really. Broad strokes, here: just describe, in general terms, what you think it’d be like if you (a) found enlightenment or whatever, and then (b) just got on with the rest of your life, as someone who now knows what’s what. > > What would success look like? I don’t know. I’m just doing this because it seems like the right answer, not really because I want to. I don’t want to be wrong so it feels like this is the only choice I have. It’s so bad that I feel like I need to know what Buddhism thinks about any topic: loneliness, love, job, aspergers, etc. It just feels like I have no opinion ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/62 "2019-05-14T04:23:13Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Well, I’m no Buddhist scholar but I strongly doubt that they teaching that “imagination as wrong and not living in reality”, that “such things are wrong and you are living in delusion.” Show me Buddhists saying that nobody should imagine anything or enjoy anything. Pretty much any monk (at least the ones I have spoken with at some Buddhist centers) and most who write in articles or publications centered around Buddhism (Lions Roar, Tricycle, etc). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/63 "2019-05-14T04:26:15Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I don’t know. I’m just doing this because it seems like the right answer, not really because I want to. I don’t want to be wrong so it feels like this is the only choice I have. It’s so bad that I feel like I need to know what Buddhism thinks about any topic: loneliness, love, job, aspergers, etc. But why? What’s the next step? Say you _do_ find out what Buddhism thinks about this or that topic; and, having done that, you would then — what? How would your life then be different? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/64 "2019-05-14T05:39:07Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > Pretty much any monk (at least the ones I have spoken with at some Buddhist centers) and most who write in articles or publications centered around Buddhism (Lions Roar, Tricycle, etc). Care to \*\*\*cite \*\*\*one of these publications saying “don’t imagine anything or enjoy anything”? Because [stuff like this](https://www.lionsroar.com/ask-the-teachers-am-i-supposed-to-stop-thinking/) is literally the first article I found on Lion’s Roar, and that has 3 practitioners saying exactly the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/65 "2019-05-14T06:35:09Z")
You know, it’s possible to study what Buddhists believe, without actually believing it yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/66 "2019-05-14T08:41:43Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I tried that before, really I did. But no matter how heartfelt, thought out, or reasoned I was, fear just ruled out. Fear that I am disobeying or lying to myself, fear that they are right (crazy I know) and that I am wrong by not listening to them. I have given myself permission, but it does nothing. Then you have not truly given yourself permission. It is not Buddhism that’s enslaving you, it’s you. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/67 "2019-05-14T13:06:07Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I tried that before, really I did. But no matter how heartfelt, thought out, or reasoned I was, fear just ruled out. Fear that I am disobeying or lying to myself, fear that they are right (crazy I know) and that I am wrong by not listening to them. I have given myself permission, but it does nothing. > [@Machinaforce](#): > > If there are any I would like to know. I’d just like to get through one day without feeling like I’m doing something “wrong”. The best advice you are ever going to get along these lines was penned ~420 years ago by one William Shakespeare: > [@](#): > > To thine own self be true So long as you are content with your choices around spiritual beliefs (or any other non-provable beliefs), “right” and “wrong” don’t really enter into the equation. They can’t because there is no objective right or wrong in sprituality. Go with what gives you comfort, period. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/68 "2019-05-14T13:39:11Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yeah, that’s [just what a Buddhist would say](http://www.dailybuddhism.com/archives/903)! Yes, there’s a reason I specifically mentioned strawberries. > [@Machinaforce](#): > > And yet on that same page: > > "It amazes me how often I’ve seen the word “is” throughtout this site. Nothing “is”. Things resemble, apeear, or have some qualities of other things, but no thing “IS” another thing. Most grown adults know what “is” means, so most grown adults lie incessantly everyday. “The sky IS blue. The air IS cold. That man IS ugly.” Lies. > > Not mistakes, not semantic differences, but mere lies." > > “My understanding of koans was that they are meant to break your reliance on language, because the concepts they confer cannot be communicated with language. Sort of fighting fire with fire. So there really shouldn’t be written interpretations…” > > Which really just adds to my issues with Buddhism. C’mon, man - you **know** it’s always a bad idea to read internet comment sections. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/69 "2019-05-14T14:48:19Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, there’s a reason I specifically mentioned strawberries. This is what I tend to think about when someone brings up strawberries. > [@](#): > > Ah, but the strawberries, that’s, that’s where I had them, they laughed at me and made jokes, but I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt, with geometric logic, that a duplicate key to the ward room icebox did exist, and I’ve had produced that key if they hadn’t pulled the Caine out of action. I, I know now they were only trying to protect some fellow officer. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/70 "2019-05-14T16:15:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Care to \*\*\*cite \*\*\*one of these publications saying “don’t imagine anything or enjoy anything”? > > Because [stuff like this](https://www.lionsroar.com/ask-the-teachers-am-i-supposed-to-stop-thinking/) is literally the first article I found on Lion’s Roar, and that has 3 practitioners saying exactly the opposite. They actually don’t say the opposite since they don’t really reference imagination at all. One talks about the middle way between ultimate truth and mundane in which he says there are no mountains and rivers, so in essence the “correct” answer is that there is nothing. It’s similar to this: [Pema Chödrön’s Six Kinds of Loneliness | Lion’s Roar](https://www.lionsroar.com/six-kinds-of-loneliness/) About not having a reference point. I find it confusing how they talk about virtue and good when not being biased or attached is part of their teachings. But I can say for sure there are plenty of articles on those publications that deride imagination as choosing to be unconscious and living in illusion. One of the authors on that link you provided even said that it’s about training one not to get lost in the mind and that’s what imagination entails at times. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/71 "2019-05-14T16:17:06Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > The best advice you are ever going to get along these lines was penned ~420 years ago by one William Shakespeare: > So long as you are content with your choices around spiritual beliefs (or any other non-provable beliefs), “right” and “wrong” don’t really enter into the equation. They can’t because there is no objective right or wrong in sprituality. Go with what gives you comfort, period. I would love to go with Shakespeare, I love his tragedies. But there is no self to be true to, according to Buddhism that is. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/72 "2019-05-14T16:32:25Z")
The self is provable by observation. As in, even if you are _deceived up the yin-yang_, you still are observing reality from a perspective. Cogito ergo sum, yo - the one thing you can always be certain of, that even the most hardline skeptic can’t honestly deny, is that one’s self exists in one form or another - and that it is individually conscious. Anybody who denies that the self exists is thus disproven before they even get out of the gate. So yeah, you exist. Period. (…Okay, so technically I can only be certain _I_ exist, but that’s still enough to disprove any mythos where selves don’t exist.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/73 "2019-05-14T19:28:03Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > They actually don’t say the opposite since they don’t really reference imagination at all. What do you think a sentence like From that perspective, “to rest in nonconceptual, open, ‘don’t know’ mind” isn’t so much to stop or transcend thinking as to simply let thoughts be “just thoughts” and to know that the mind is doing its thing. Thinking is simply what the mind does, in the same way that ears hear and eyes see. is about? > [@](#): > > One talks about the middle way between ultimate truth and mundane in which he says there are no mountains and rivers, so in essence the “correct” answer is that there is nothing. Ermm, did you miss the _end of that lesson? After enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters are waters. That’s the_ exact opposite \*\*of nothing. > [@](#): > > It’s similar to this: [Pema Chödrön’s Six Kinds of Loneliness | Lion’s Roar](https://www.lionsroar.com/six-kinds-of-loneliness/) I’m not even going to bother reading that link, as going by your reading of that first article, I’m sure you’ve misinterpreted what it says. > [@](#): > > But I can say for sure there are plenty of articles on those publications that deride imagination as choosing to be unconscious and living in illusion. Then cite one that explicitly says that. Quote from it, where it says that. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/74 "2019-05-14T20:15:57Z")
Buddhism is inherently going to be tricky for anyone not brought up with it to properly understand. It deals with some fairly high level concepts. It has its own unique terminology. There may be some clouding from the distance through time to its origin and the diffusion into different branches. And it has undergone sometimes multiple translations. You shouldn’t expect it to be easy, or to feel bad if you don’t get it. But you should at least allow for the possibility that if its expressed main goal is to extinguish suffering, and instead you find it is increasing your suffering, that maybe you don’t understand it. Also, while it is certainly possible to benefit from reading about Buddhism, to get the most out of it, and more importantly, avoid common and potentially dangerous errors, it is better to be a part of a community (Sangha). You could say the same about almost any discipline. Separately, while your angst might have been triggered by topics Buddhism touches on, those issues would exist regardless and you may want to address them on their own terms. You can have a discussion about whether joy is compatible with detachment without having to reference Buddhism. If this remains an ongoing chronic frustration for you, you probably would benefit from a face to face addressing of it. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/75 "2019-05-14T20:53:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > What do you think a sentence like > From that perspective, “to rest in nonconceptual, open, ‘don’t know’ mind” isn’t so much to stop or transcend thinking as to simply let thoughts be “just thoughts” and to know that the mind is doing its thing. Thinking is simply what the mind does, in the same way that ears hear and eyes see. > is about? > > Ermm, did you miss the _end of that lesson? > After enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters are waters. > That’s the_ exact opposite \*\*of nothing. > > I’m not even going to bother reading that link, as going by your reading of that first article, I’m sure you’ve misinterpreted what it says. > > Then cite one that explicitly says that. Quote from it, where it says that. The one that I linked. And you missed the point about the ULTIMATE truth being that nothing exists. It’s not the opposite of nothing. When they say enlightenment it’s when you realize what the capital T is. As for letting the mind do it’s thing that’s pretty much avoiding imagination since imagination is about going where it takes you and getting lost in it. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/76 "2019-05-14T21:15:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I would love to go with Shakespeare, I love his tragedies. But there is no self to be true to, according to Buddhism that is. Hmm, then you are screwed. So Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/77 "2019-05-14T21:17:42Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > The one that I linked. Then quote where it says that. Quote it. I say again, _give an actual quote_. > [@](#): > > And you missed the point about the ULTIMATE truth being that nothing exists. It does NOT say that anywhere in that article. The closest statement, the **only one** using the words “nothing exists”, is : . That is, we start to understand that nothing exists on its own; all things exist in relation to all other things. Which isn’t \*\*remotely \*\*the same as what you’re spouting. > [@](#): > > As for letting the mind do it’s thing that’s pretty much avoiding imagination since imagination is about going where it takes you and getting lost in it. No. \*That’s \*daydreaming. Imagination is “the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.” That’s it. And that’s exactly what that earlier quote was about. I think part of your problem is that you use made-up definitions of words and then expect others to understand you. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/78 "2019-05-14T21:56:46Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > Buddhism is inherently going to be tricky for anyone not brought up with it to properly understand. It deals with some fairly high level concepts. It has its own unique terminology. There may be some clouding from the distance through time to its origin and the diffusion into different branches. And it has undergone sometimes multiple translations. > > You shouldn’t expect it to be easy, or to feel bad if you don’t get it. But you should at least allow for the possibility that if its expressed main goal is to extinguish suffering, and instead you find it is increasing your suffering, that maybe you don’t understand it. > > Also, while it is certainly possible to benefit from reading about Buddhism, to get the most out of it, and more importantly, avoid common and potentially dangerous errors, it is better to be a part of a community (Sangha). You could say the same about almost any discipline. > > Separately, while your angst might have been triggered by topics Buddhism touches on, those issues would exist regardless and you may want to address them on their own terms. You can have a discussion about whether joy is compatible with detachment without having to reference Buddhism. > > If this remains an ongoing chronic frustration for you, you probably would benefit from a face to face addressing of it. They said that thing don’t exist, and that all there really is is consciousness, and that you are alone. Not exactly things that alleviate suffering. Personal I would like to think that it only relieves it if you stick at the base level. I mean someone earlier in this thread said that physical reality was just a veil. How am I supposed to respond to that? Seems like it’s just good for an existential crisis. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/79 "2019-05-14T21:59:54Z")
> [@Machinaforce](#): > > I mean someone earlier in this thread said that physical reality was just a veil. How am I supposed to respond to that? Seems like it’s just good for an existential crisis. Underline added. How about responding with a shrug and a chuckle? Just like you would if someone told you Jesus was the son of God, born to a virgin, who ascended up to heaven after being crucified. People believe weird shit, but you don’t have to let it get you down. ---
**Author:** ![Machinaforce](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@Machinaforce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machinaforce)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878/80 "2019-05-14T22:00:21Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Then quote where it says that. > > Quote it. > > I say again, _give an actual quote_. > > It does NOT say that anywhere in that article. > > The closest statement, the **only one** using the words “nothing exists”, is : > . That is, we start to understand that nothing exists on its own; all things exist in relation to all other things. > > Which isn’t \*\*remotely \*\*the same as what you’re spouting. > > No. \*That’s \*daydreaming. Imagination is “the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses.” That’s it. And that’s exactly what that earlier quote was about. > > I think part of your problem is that you use made-up definitions of words and then expect others to understand you. It did say it when it said there are no rocks or rivers [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-feels-like-a-chain-for-me/833878.md?page=5)