# Buddhism in Pre-Columbian Mexico? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627 "2003-09-14T22:15:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/1 "2003-09-14T22:15:55Z")
According to this book I just read, “Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne” some Buddhist monks led by Monk Hui Shen sailed to Mexico in, which she claims is proven by the existence of Buddhist-like artwork and similar symbols. I’ve never heard this anywhere else. Ever. And it sounds like it would be the find of the century. The sort of thing that would be prominently displayed in textbooks everywhere. I’ve already caught her basically dead wrong about some other facts, so is she just making stuff up at this point or have I been somehow avoided by this strange and amazing fact? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/2 "2003-09-14T23:22:41Z")
Not sure if this is related but one of my college profs once passed around some pictures and spent some time talking about some skulls discovered in Central or South America somewhere (I forget where) that anthropologists were pretty sure were Chinese. I think there may have also been some tools or artifacts or something that looked Chinese. Sorry I’m shakey on the details but I do think there is some credible evidence that there may have been a pre-Columbian Chinese presence in the Americas who presumably could have been Buddhist. I’ll see if I can find any more. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/3 "2003-09-14T23:31:53Z")
Here’s something on a pre-Columbian [url=http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/]Chinese presence in the Americas. Nothing about skulls, though (and come to think of it, it might have been mummies…) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/4 "2003-09-14T23:33:02Z")
[Fixed link](http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/5 "2003-09-14T23:40:59Z")
Upon further googling I think I was conflating two different things in my mind. I was mixing up the Chinese-in-America theory with the discovery not of Chinese mummies in America but with [caucasian mummies in China](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/chinamum/taklamakan.html) I still think there are some artifacts in South America that look Chinese (I think it might have been knives) but I got the mummies backwards. Sorry about that. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/6 "2003-09-14T23:48:50Z")
Last March, there was a brief discussion in this [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=170979&highlight=chinese+AND+exploration) about Gavin Menzies’ book, _1421: The Year China Discovered America_. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/7 "2003-09-15T00:46:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > According to this book I just read, “Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne” some Buddhist monks led by Monk Hui Shen sailed to Mexico in, which she claims is proven by the existence of Buddhist-like artwork and similar symbols. Presumably you’re refering to Louise Levathes’ _When China Ruled The Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1405-1433_ (Oxford, 1994). Her account of the subject in general is vastly more cautious than Gavin Menzies’ and, as you probably realise, she’s usually cited as the sensible alternative to him. That said, this particular issue is the eyebrow raising claim in her book. She vaguely states on p31-2: > [@](#): > > Another [theory] is that Daoists succeeded in crossing the Pacific, landing in Central America during the rise of the Mayan and perhaps having some perceptible, but small influence on their civilisation. Many have remarked at the similarity between Chinese characters and the square-shaped Mayan glyphs, and the astonishing resemblence of the Chinese and Mayan calendars. This seems fair enough, as far as it goes. The first sentence is both non-commital and rather minimises the issue. And it is true that people have remarked on such “similarities”. Unfortunately, they’ve tended to be bonkers diffusionists in the Barry Fell mould. Personally, I don’t see any resemblences that are particularly worthy of note. Her longer discussion of the issue on p40-1 is at least endnoted. The citation is to David Kelley, which strikes me as half-decent. He’s undoubtedly damn clever and a key figure in the decipherment of Mayan hieroglypics, but much of his later work is regarded as eccentric by other Mayanists. And I’ve never come across any of them endorsing him on this point. > [@](#): > > And it sounds like it would be the find of the century. The sort of thing that would be prominently displayed in textbooks everywhere. Really? Granted, I’m not struck by any similarities in the first place, but any influence is surely rather minor. At best, it’s on a par with the Vikings in Newfoundland. Interesting, but of no great significance in the long run. (Of course, L’Anse aux Meadows does tend to get a high profile in textbooks, but that’s another issue.) > [@](#): > > I’ve already caught her basically dead wrong about some other facts, so is she just making stuff up at this point or have I been somehow avoided by this strange and amazing fact? Out of interest, where do you think she’s wrong? (I’m not a specialist, so I wouldn’t expect to spot such mistakes, but I am interested in her general reliability.) ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/8 "2003-09-15T00:58:55Z")
I’m currently enrolled in a Human Geography course. The other day we were discussing the European colonial movement. I asked if there was anything going on in the Eastern world at this time, and I got a bunch of blank stares. The consensus was that the Eastern world, specifically China, wasn’t doing much exploration at the time. I find that hard to swallow. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/9 "2003-09-15T11:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > The consensus was that the Eastern world, specifically China, wasn’t doing much exploration at the time. I find that hard to swallow. Pretty much correct. China abandoned the external world and followed a policy on inwardness strictly after 1433 or so. Colonialism started about that same time (acually, about a generation later, when the Portuguese managed to get around Africa). No one else had the interest, or at least power, to make colonies. > [@](#): > > Presumably you’re refering to Louise Levathes’ When China Ruled The Seas: The Treasure Fleet of the Dragon Throne, 1405-1433 (Oxford, 1994). Her account of the subject in general is vastly more cautious than Gavin Menzies’ and, as you probably realise, she’s usually cited as the sensible alternative to him. Hit it on the head. > [@](#): > > Really? Granted, I’m not struck by any similarities in the first place, but any influence is surely rather minor. At best, it’s on a par with the Vikings in Newfoundland. True, but that was mentioned quite porminently in a very new textbook. You’d think it would have been worthy of mention, particularly since contact with the New and Old world is something of much importance to us 'Mericans. > [@](#): > > Out of interest, where do you think she’s wrong? (I’m not a specialist, so I wouldn’t expect to spot such mistakes, but I am interested in her general reliability.) Two things specifically come to mind. 1. She’s dead wrong about the introduciton of drydocks into European shipbuilding (forget the page she mentioned them on). She states that the English made the first in Eurpean history in the 16th century. In actual fact, the Greeks built some way back before Christ. 2. On a more general note, she’s a whiny hag-harpy. I mean that. She continuanually compares Europe to CHinese technology and engineering and society and always mentions, for no reason other than to bring up a pointless fact, the myriad ways in which China was better. I wouldn’rt have minded it much if she’d actually done a chapter-length comparison of the shipbuilding technologies of the day, but her goal is to snipe rather than explain. Worse yet, she effectively lies because she ignores the actualy situation and limitations that western Europe faced at the time. She implies, for example, that the Santa Maria was the largest ship the Euros could produce, which is dead wrong, amid her personal wet-dream about ship sizes. She’s a good writer, but an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/10 "2003-09-15T13:30:29Z")
Not to hijack or anything, but I always thought that the nation to be the first to do \_\_\_\_\_, whether it was to colonize North America or send a man on the moon, also had a lot to do with national interest and not just feasability. I will acknolege that China had the technological capacity to do so, but whether or not they really cared to do so is an entirely different matter. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/11 "2003-09-15T15:01:07Z")
I would swear that Cecil wrote a column on this, but it isn’t in the archive. News to come when I get home to check the books. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/12 "2003-09-15T23:25:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > 2) On a more general note, she’s a whiny hag-harpy. I mean that. She continuanually compares Europe to CHinese technology and engineering and society and always mentions, for no reason other than to bring up a pointless fact, the myriad ways in which China was better. Well, yes. But since she was a protege of Needham, my own reaction to this was that it was only to be expected. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/13 "2003-09-16T13:23:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I will acknolege that China had the technological capacity to do so, but whether or not they really cared to do so is an entirely different matter. The egyptions had the technological capacity to do so in reed boats. For that matter, there is some evidence that Irish monks made the trek in skin coracles. People have done both. The coracles, most interstingly, work very well in artctic waters. If you run into an iceberg, you just push off again. If onyl the titanic was made of seal. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/14 "2003-09-16T18:54:23Z")
Given the Kuroshio Current and similar winds, it would not be surprising if the occasional Chinese vessel went off course and ended up in the Americas. Their influence is clearly more debatable. [URL=http://squall.sfsu.edu/courses/geol103/labs/currents/images/ocean%20currents.gif]Cite[/URL It appears less likely that there would be trade or communications both ways, especially as history does not record it. ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/15 "2003-09-16T19:13:56Z")
Dang. [Cite](http://squall.sfsu.edu/courses/geol103/labs/currents/images/ocean%20currents.gif) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/16 "2003-09-17T03:57:47Z")
For any contact between Eurasia (or Africa) and the Americas, I am always curious as to what contagious diseases were prevalent among the peoples of the “old world” at the time of the purported contact. We already know that the Spanish contact with the Americas (augmented with a few journeys by people to the North of Spain) absolutely wreaked havoc with the peoples of the Americas, with smallpox, measles, and a number of other illnesses sweeping across the unprotected Americans like huge, lethal scythes. To establish that some other “old world” society established any more than a bump-and-go contact with any “new world” society, one should be able to demonstrate that at the time of the contact, no contagious diseases were endemic to the “old world” peoples. To my mind, an inability to demonstrate that the “old world” socities were free of pathogens at the times of contacts reduces the claims of strong contacts to wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Odinoneeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@Odinoneeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odinoneeye)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/17 "2003-09-17T08:18:16Z")
I know I read once, a while ago, that buddist monks were thought to have done teaching in Central and South America. The book said that Guatamala was in fact named after the buddah (Gautama). This is all IIRC. Anyone know anything about this? I can’t find anything online about the origins of Guatamal’s name. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/18 "2003-09-17T10:11:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Odinoneeye \* > The book said that Guatamala was in fact named after the buddah (Gautama). No, it is a Nahuatl designation, given to the region by Nahuatl-speakers that accompanied Alvarado’s expedition in 1520, though just what it refers to is disputed. The most common translations are either “land of the trees” ( quahtemallan ) or “mountain of vomiting water” ( guhatezmalla - referring to the volcano by the second capital established in 1527 in the Almononga valley, destroyed by a mudslide in 1541 ). - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism-in-pre-columbian-mexico/201627/19 "2003-09-17T10:15:50Z")
Excuse me, 1523, not 1520. - Tamerlane