# Buddhism
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 8, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537 "2003-06-08T23:41:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/21 "2003-06-10T01:37:02Z")
Buddhism has nothing to do with "other-worldliness,’ **Susmo** , you seem to have a very limited understanding of the religion.
As far as your anecdote goes, Zen masters will often employ ideliberately illogical, absurd or even violent tactics with neophytes in order test commitment as. The “Yankee” in your story showed that he had no real resolve and was an unacceptable candidate for a student. A quickness to anger and self-righteousness is a sign of an untamed ego and a lack of discipline. Another common tactic for a new student would be to make him clean toilets or peel onions for a month or two without ever teaching him anything. They’re trying to weed out anyone who isn’t absolutely committed to the process.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/22 "2003-06-10T01:47:07Z")
To respond to ElbaliavanU (I don’t normally go in for these point by point responses … but I got on a roll):
Here is the quandry. To someone who is looking toward Buddhism (or Christianity or any other religion for that matter) with no preconceived notions, your arguments do not hold up.
> [@](#):
>
> **Buddhist does seem “peaceful”, but it’s definetly lacking something. Jack Betty mentioned it- there is no god to pray to and ask for things. That’s true. Also, there is “no God” that loves you and cares for you and wants the best for you, and… oh my… this is getting quite depressing.**
From my point of view, I’d say the insistance that there is a “God that loves me and wants the best for me,” is the opposite of something missing … something intrusive and unneeded.
> [@](#):
>
> **You choose your own path. Do you realize that your path and choices might not be the best for you?**
Which is why I seek enlightenment. The choices I make make may not be the best for me, but if I find enlightenment within myself, I will learn what the best choices are … because they are on “the path.”
> [@](#):
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> \*\*If you let a Higher Authority (God Himself) guide you, your life will have more meaning than some religion could possibly ever give you. I have no religion, but I do have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and it’s way better than going along through life all by myself. If you chose your own path, there wouldn’t be anyone to permanently guide you. There are wise people, but they won’t ALWAYS be there when you call them. Talk about lonliness!!
\*\*
For my money, there is a way. To only go that way if I’m guided by a higher authority seems ridiculous to me. Should I not endeavor to know the way myself? Why should I rely on something I can’t see or know? And I hate to break it to you, but if you have a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” … you’re a Christian. It’s okay to admit it.
The thing is, in following Buddhism (which I admit, I’m not exactly “doing”, but I am intrigued by the notion), one does not choose one’s own path. There is a path to follow. It’s there. You do not need to make one up for yourself. I don’t need a savior or messiah to guide me. I know the way … it’s just doing it that’s the chore. Loneliness is not an issue, for if I do it right I will be one with everything. Talk about inclusion.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*I’m not dissing Buddhism, because in the beginning it may seem cool and all. I don’t know what they think about drugs, sex and all that stuff. But I’m telling you, when you are in the last moments of your life, and you are still Buddhist, you’re probably going to think, “I missed something in life…” Then bam, you’re dead, and you’re standing in front of the God you didn’t think exsisted. How about that? \*\*
To tell you the truth, I find it a little arrogent to assert that if you’re a Buddhist will be unfullfilled with life.
You might be offended if I put the shoe on the other foot, “when you are in the last moments of your life, and you are still a Christian, you’re probably going to think, ‘I’m not enlightened,’ then bam, you’re dead and you aren’t one with the universe … you’re lost … you may be reincarnated, or you may be nothingness. And the God you thought existed just isn’t there. How about that?”
You make good points and I’m trying to address them respectfully. I hope I did a good enough job. Nice talking to you.
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### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/23 "2003-06-10T02:55:25Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Lupin the 3rd \*
> \*\*I like to smile.
> \*\*
Any religion that has a sacred text like the [Kevatta Sutta](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn11.html) is okay in my book. Make sure you read till the end. Quite possibly the oldest “man goes to heaven” joke. Well, okay, not really a “joke” but still funny.
> [@](#):
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> _Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep_\*\*
> The way I have seen Buddhists practicing their faith or religion, it is all about asking favors from the powers that be, whatever their professional teachers advocate about being other-worldly. These professionals themselves are not exactly other-worldly either.\*\*
This is a correct observation, in many cases, at least that’s what it appears like from the outside. You cannot over-stress the wideness of beliefs encompassed by “Buddhism”. Theravada, Tibetan, Zen, Pure Land…
In its expansion, Buddhism never really adopted a confrontational attitude towards other religions. For this reason, Buddhism, as it is currently practiced in Asia, carries a lot of baggage that is strictly speaking completely unrelated to the message of the Buddha.
Probably only a small minority of people who label themselves “Buddhist” actually practice meditation.
I think many western followers have an overly “rosy” view of the situation of Buddhism in Asia. It’s quite rotten in many places, actually.
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/24 "2003-06-10T03:03:46Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by jovan \*
> \*\*I think many western followers have an overly “rosy” view of the situation of Buddhism in Asia. It’s quite rotten in many places, actually. \*\*
I’ll buy that. I recognize that in myself. I like the tenets so I like the religion … I don’t even look at the warts.
But by the same token, I think the same thing could be said of Christianity in the States.
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### Author:  [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/25 "2003-06-10T03:08:12Z")
Phooey,
BIRAKC Hasn’t been here yet!
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### Author:  [@Birakc\_Ishvar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birakc_Ishvar)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/26 "2003-06-10T03:41:38Z")
I’m here.
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### Author:  [@Drabble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drabble)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/27 "2003-06-10T04:06:19Z")
HI!
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### Author:  [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/28 "2003-06-10T04:25:03Z")
I’m not a Buddhist, but I would recommend the _Lin-chi Lu_ (I think it’s translated into English as _The Teachings of Zen Master Lin-chi_) to anyone interested. Lin-chi was the founder of a school of Zen known in Japan as Rinzai, and I think in China as Lin-chi, and he was a total badass, being one of the major influences on the shocking and often irreverent tactics used by Zen masters. Probably the best example is when he points out that the Buddha is not some kind of ultimate destination, but “more like the hole in a privy” – really quite an apt summation, when you think about it.
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### Author:  [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/29 "2003-06-10T07:54:12Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ElbaliavanU \*
> \*\*Buddhist does seem “peaceful”, but it’s definetly lacking something. Jack Betty mentioned it- there is no god to pray to and ask for things. That’s true. Also, there is “no God” that loves you and cares for you and wants the best for you, and… oh my… this is getting quite depressing.
\*\*
Sorry, I already tried that. I know from experience that Christianity has no god that cares for me, or wants the best for me.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> You choose your own path. Do you realize that your path and choices might not be the best for you? If you let a Higher Authority (God Himself) guide you, your life will have more meaning than some religion could possibly ever give you.
\*\*
Again, that simply isn’t true. I used to be a Christian, and I felt that my life was more bleak and meaningless than I can put words to. Now that I’m no longer a Christian, I can find meaning in life.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* I’m not dissing Buddhism, because in the beginning it may seem cool and all. I don’t know what they think about drugs, sex and all that stuff.
\*\*
What’s that supposed to mean?
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* But I’m telling you, when you are in the last moments of your life, and you are still Buddhist, you’re probably going to think, “I missed something in life…”
\*\*
Cite? My life was missing a great deal when I was a Christian. It’s not missing now.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\* Then bam, you’re dead, and you’re standing in front of the God you didn’t think exsisted. How about that? \*\*
Let’s turn that around:
Bam, you’re dead, and then Allah sends you to hell where you belong. Do you really think you can play games with God? Do you really think your blasphemy will go unnoticed?
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### Author:  [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/30 "2003-06-10T08:02:18Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by NinjaChick \*
> \*\*6. No wars have been started over Buddhism. \*\*
Uh, no. Korean history is full of bloody power struggles involving Buddhists.
From what I have heard, Buddhism in SE Asia can be just as debased as American Christianity. Like I always say, in America, stupid people tend to be Christian, and atheists tend to be smart. Why? Because if you’re stupid, you don’t read books, and you stick with the default option of Christianity. If you’re an atheist, that means you’re probably smart enough to think for yourself, and reject the default option. If you’re an American Buddhist, that means you’re smart enough to read and understand books on Buddhism. No such hurdles exist for someone to be a Buddhist in a country where Buddhism is already the “default option.” Think of Pure Land Buddhism: say this magic formula X times, and you’ll go to heaven. Salvation, with no thinking involved!
That being said, I think Buddhism is a very good religion. I just want to remind everyone that nothing is perfect, and pretty much everthing can be debased.
BTW, my own experiences with Buddhism are very much in line with a lot of what has already been said. Buddhism doesn’t require you to believe anything: you can be a Christian and a Buddhist at the same time. Buddhism isn’t something you believe. It’s something you do.
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### Author:  [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/31 "2003-06-10T08:06:08Z")
> [@](#):
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> \*Originally posted by Susma Rio Sep \*
> \*\*For those of you who plan to learn meditation or other-worldiness from Buddhist masters, here is an anecdote:
>
> A Yankee signed up with a Buddhist master from the Far East stationed then in New York to learn meditation and other-worldiness. In his first meeting with the master, he got the order for him to bring him a cup of hot tea from the kitchen. On handling the tea to the master, the master splashed the tea in the face of the student. He was instructed to get another cup of hot tea. And he got splashed with it again. Then also another order for a third cup of tea. This time the student brought the tea to the master and splashed it in the face of the master. What happened? Master expelled student from discipleship but kept the money.
>
> Ha ha ha!
> \*\*
Hey, here’s another nice anecdote:
A family went to a Catholic church and signed up their son as a choir boy. The choir boy was repeatedly molested by a priest! What happened? The bishop pulled some strings so that the priest got off scot-free.
Ha ha ha!
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### Author:  [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/32 "2003-06-10T08:09:52Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Jack Batty \*
> \*\*If that so, it makes about as much sense as offering an anecdote of a molested choir boy to condemn Christianity. \*\*
I dream of a day when I read an entire thread before posting…
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### Author:  [@jovan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jovan)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/33 "2003-06-10T10:25:15Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Ben \*
> \*\*No such hurdles exist for someone to be a Buddhist in a country where Buddhism is already the “default option.” Think of Pure Land Buddhism: say this magic formula X times, and you’ll go to heaven. Salvation, with no thinking involved!
> \*\*
Even though I personally have virtually no affinity for Pure Land Buddhism, I’ve tried to make an effort to understand where it’s coming from. I used to see it as something so completely disconnected from the fundamental teachings of Buddha that it was Buddhist in name only. Now, I’m not so sure.
From its onset, Buddhism was essentially addressed at a community of monks and nuns; that is, people who make striving for enlightenment the very centre of the lives. The Buddha was very clear that one should be completely, entirely and honestly devoted to the path to even enter the orders. It’s not that lay practice was discouraged, but there was a dearth of commentary on how it should be carried out.
This issue was addressed later on and was partly, at least, responsible for the rise of Mayahana Buddhism. However, the fact remains that Buddhism _can_ be a very elitist system. Not everyone has the determination, the time, the opportunity, in other words the “karma” to fully walk the eightfold path. You are thus left with two groups of people: those who have the means to free themselves from suffering and those who don’t.
In Japan, Buddhist schools are classified according to whether they emphasise the concepts of _jiriki_ or _tariki_. _Jiriki_ is the act of influencing on your own destiny. If life is like a canoe trip down a river, _jiriki_ is the act of paddling. _Tariki_ on the other hand refers to outside causes influencing on your life. Effectively, it might be seen as the current of the above river. _Jiriki_ schools include Zen and Shingon (the Japanese branch of Tibetan Buddhism), while _tariki_ schools include Pure Land sects.
Two of the most influential and popular characters in Japanese history were the monks Ikkyu and Rennyo. Both were contemporary and wrote two very important texts around the same time. Ikkyu’s “Gaikotsu (skeletons)” is regarded as one of the most profound works of Zen poetry. It is also largely incomprehensible to any but a small number of very wise and dedicated people. On the other hand, Rennyo’s “O-Fumi” was, and is still criticized as somewhat shallow and simplistic.
Yet, “O-Fumi” is far from worthless. Countless people have found some amount of inner peace by reading it. It’s value lies precisely in its being somewhat a collection of truisms. Pure Land Buddhism isn’t a way to unroot suffering, it’s a way to appease it to tolerable levels. When you repeat “namu amida butsu” over and over again, you’re putting your destiny in Amitabha’s hands, learning to let go of this desire to control the raft.
My mother has neared the age where people of her generation are starting to die with some unfortunate regularity. When she visited me last summer, she took to reading “The Teaching of Buddha”, which is some sort of Buddhist Gideon’s Bible, as you can often find it in hotel rooms. One phrase that particularly shook her was the Buddha’s simple exhortation that “all things must vanish”. It’s simple and obvious but if you manage to accept that that’s the way things are and there’s nothing you can do about it, in other words letting go of the raft, then it makes you longtime friend’s dying of cancer a bit more bearable. _This_ is what Pure Land Buddhism strives to help you with - it provides a framework and a bit of hope to help you adopt a more philosophical (in the true sense of the word) outlook on life.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/34 "2003-06-10T17:21:04Z")
The Eight Fold Path-
For a unique view of the path, check out the fighting game Brutal-Paws of Fury
Ho Tei-
AFAIK Ho Tei is actually a Daoist god assimilated into Buddhism. The same was done to Kwan Yin(spelling varies), the Daoist goddess of mercy and fertility. Cheerful, smiling deities seem to be very common in Daoism.
**NinjaChick** -
I’ve found my studies of Buddhism to be very compatible with my Judaism. The book _The Jew In The Lotus_ was written on the subject, though I’ve never got around to reading it.
**AvailableUn**
How is that tale different than the trials a Christian must undergo to be ordained or to take vows as a monk or nun?
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### Author:  [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)
#### Post date: [June 10, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/35 "2003-06-10T18:57:06Z")
I noticed a couple of martial-artists posting, so I thought I’d also recommend a book. "The Bodhisattva Warriors: The Origin, Inner Philosophy, History and Symbolism of the Buddhist Martial Art Within India and China "
A good book, although a bit dry and academic at times, but packed to the hilt with history and information about Buddhism’s development and evolution over the ages.
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### Author:  [@ElbaliavanU](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElbaliavanU)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/36 "2003-06-12T21:13:47Z")
Jack Batty:
“For my money, there is a way. To only go that way if I’m guided by a higher authority seems ridiculous to me. Should I not endeavor to know the way myself? Why should I rely on something I can’t see or know? And I hate to break it to you, but if you have a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” … you’re a Christian. It’s okay to admit it.”
Yes, I am a Christian. I know. But I am not religious. The Christian RELIGION is a bunch of rules- you can do this, you can’t do that, blah blah blah." I’m assuming that’s what you tried and didn’t find anything helpful. The Christian FAITH is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. That’s what I have. There is a big difference. BIG difference.
“I don’t need a savior or messiah to guide me. I know the way … it’s just doing it that’s the chore. Loneliness is not an issue, for if I do it right I will be one with everything. Talk about inclusion.”
You DO need a savior. If you want to go to heaven. Otherwise, do whatever you want. I think I remember reading something here about reincarnation. Do Buddhists believe in that?
“To tell you the truth, I find it a little arrogent to assert that if you’re a Buddhist will be unfullfilled with life.”
I’m sorry. You might be fulfilled in THIS life…
"You might be offended if I put the shoe on the other foot, “when you are in the last moments of your life, and you are still a Christian, you’re probably going to think, ‘I’m not enlightened,’ then bam, you’re dead and you aren’t one with the universe … you’re lost … you may be reincarnated, or you may be nothingness. And the God you thought existed just isn’t there. How about that?” "
I am not going to think “I am not enlightened”. I will thank God for the wonderful life He has given me, and wait to be passed into His arms…
I do understand what you are saying, however.
Ben~ “Sorry, I already tried that. I know from experience that Christianity has no god that cares for me, or wants the best for me.”
“I used to be a Christian, and I felt that my life was more bleak and meaningless than I can put words to. Now that I’m no longer a Christian, I can find meaning in life.”
You’re experience with the religion. Honestly, I do understand. If into the Christian religion, I’d be scared. Because it’s all about the rules of cans and cannots.
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### Author:  [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/37 "2003-06-12T21:41:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ElbaliavanU \*
> \*\*“To tell you the truth, I find it a little arrogent to assert that if you’re a Buddhist will be unfullfilled with life.”
> I’m sorry. You might be fulfilled in THIS life…
\*\*
And he’ll be fulfilled in the next life, when he’s with God. What’s the big deal over whether he’s a Christian or not in this life? He’ll be Christian enough once he meets Jesus in person.
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*
> You’re experience with the religion. Honestly, I do understand. If into the Christian religion, I’d be scared. Because it’s all about the rules of cans and cannots. \*\*
Actually, I was talking about my search for a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Like I said, I tried it, and he’s not there to love me.
Plus, there’s all those people who say God will send you to hell for making an honest mistake. I mean, come on! When you get right down to it, that’s just demon worship.
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### Author:  [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/38 "2003-06-12T21:43:05Z")
Let me ask you something, E. What do I need to do to have a personal relationship with Jesus? I would think that if Jesus were really there and really loved people you would just have to ask. Maybe there’s some sort of secret Jesus Handshake that people need to know?
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### Author:  [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2003, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/39 "2003-06-12T22:09:54Z")
You know, it’s amazing. This _was_ a thread about Buddhism.
E … you’re not getting it at all.
I’m talking about Buddhism, and why I like it’s tenets – not Christianity.
But, what the heck:
> [@](#):
>
> I’m assuming that’s what you tried [Christianity] and didn’t find anything helpful.
Now you know what happens when you assume, don’t you. I am not a Christian. I have never been a Christian. I will never be a Christian. I do not believe what you believe about Christianity. I see Christianity as _ **a** _ religion, not _ **the** _ religion.
And I must say, “I have a personal relationship with Christ” is nothing but rhetoric. I hate that phrase. You don’t have a personal relationship with someone who may or may not have existed and if he did exist, died 2000 years ago. You may identify closely with his alleged teachings, but you don’t have a personal relationship.
Getting back to the fact that Christianity means nothing to me … No, I do not need a savior to get into heaven because … BOING … there is no heaven. I mean as long as we’re stating our beliefs as gospel (no pun intended) … there are mine.
And it does matter what I do in this life, because I have to live it. And I have a conscious. And I don’t want to be an immoral person. Some times I am, sometimes I’m not, but on balance I like the way I live my life … and that’s what’s important.
On your last point to me … I guess we’re onto something … You’re not going to feel unenlightened and I’m not going to feel unfulfilled. Doesn’t make either one of us right, but at least I’m able to admit that.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buddhism/180537/40 "2003-06-12T22:46:43Z")
> [@](#):
>
> You DO need a savior. If you want to go to heaven.
Cite?
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