Buddhism

Interrobang!?:

An interesting article, but I found it rather irritating, to be honest. Horgan’s objections seem to me more revealing of the fact that he hasn’t really understood much about the subject. He writes, for example:

To begin with, this is factually incorrect; in point of fact, Theravada Buddhism fundamentally rejects the existence of a soul as it is traditionally understood within Hinduism. Hinduism taught that the material world was ephemeral, but that the “atman” was permanent. Buddhism teaches that all phenomena are ephemeral: there is no permanent substance even at the level of the soul or spirit. Even the Buddha’s teachings are impermanent. This view is really the starting point of the Buddhist “heresy” vís-a-vís Hinduism, and if Horgan hasn’t understood this basic point, then he hasn’t really understood all that much I’m afraid.

Thus, there is no soul that can “reincarnate,” technically. There are phenomena of consciousness that can be temporarily associated with each other, and that can go through a number of manifestations, but Buddhists refer to this process as “rebirth,” in order to signal that it is not the same process as spiritual reincarnation.

His accusation of de facto theism is even more off the mark. During Buddha’s lifetime the law of karma was so widely accepted that doubting its pervasive influence would be equivalent to doubting, say, the law of gravity in our day and age. Karmic law presupposes the existence of a moral structure to the universe, one in which good acts engender benefits to the actor while bad acts result in harmful effects to the same. All beings along the chain of existence were subject to Karmic law. Buddha accepted karmic law as a fundamental principle of the universe, but avoided speculating on its origins; such speculations, he claimed, “do not tend to enlightenment,” and therefore his teachings do not address them (see the Diamond Suttra for explication). It’s almost a cheap shot to accuse Buddha of default theism, therefore, when his understanding of these principles is explicitly non-theistic, in the sense that he takes a stand neither for or against the existence of a greater deity. (As an aside, the existence of “greater deities” was probably taken for granted by Buddha in those days, and scripture relates how a number of demi-gods and so forth came to Buddha directly after he had acheived enlightenment to ask him, “Dude! How did you do that?”)

In addition, I think Horgan misses a much more profound criticism of Buddhism here. The law of Karma is morally problematic, to say the least. This is primarily because of the delay assumed to exist between an act and its fruits. I can perform a bad deed today, for example, but not taste the fruit of that deed for years. By the time bad luck hits my doorstep, I’m no longer able to ascertain why. Technically I can suffer in this lifetime for acts I do not remember performing in a previous lifetime. How can such effects possibly represent a moral system? I can (and will) be punished for things I did wrong, in a state of ignorance, that I don’t even remember doing. I can’t even learn from my mistakes.

Horgan goes on to point out that “decades of research have shown meditation’s effects to be highly unreliable….” This is really no news. Centuries of experience have shown the same thing, and its well-known among practitioners that meditation can exacerbate a person’s problems and weakness just as it can help them. There are no infallible, magical cures to the ills of life, not even in Buddhism.

The rest of Horgan’s essay is equally uninformed/one-sided. He’s “troubled” by the basic message of “detachment” found in Buddhism, but Buddhism is essentially a world-denying religion: the message is that life is suffering. So what options do we have, otherwise? I mean, there is a solid logic to the basic teaching: life is suffering; suffering is caused by attachment to things that are fundamentally impermanent; to find relief from suffering, one must give up ones attachment to impermanent things; the eight-fold path, if followed diligently, will enable you to overcome attachment and achieve freedom from rebirth in the suffering world of karma. Buddhism is completely non-coercive with regard to these claims, however, and if you feel that life is not suffering [in Pali, dukkha], then have a nice day, and good luck to you. Hope you’re right, and that you find your way.
Lupin:

I was a practicing Buddhist for a number of years, and I think there is much of value to be found in it. For what its worth, the deeper I penetrated into the teachings, the more confused I found them to be. In addition, I would advise you not to expect meditation to work as an immediate cure-all for your suffering, like an aspirin you take for a headache. Good luck in your search!

:slight_smile:

It’s worth noting that most schools of Mahayana Buddhism differs in some significant ways from the doctrines of “Mere Buddhism” (if you’ll forgive the Lewisian solecism ;)). And that boddhisattvas and salvationist doctrines have inserted themselves into the former significantly. (I can think of some teachings I’ve seen that would ring a distinct bell in Susma’s Catholic soul.)

On the other hand, the Eight Noble Truths and the Fourfold Way describe a form of mystical experience and practical spiritual orientation that does not differ in any fundamental way from some forms of “negative mysticism” within Christianity.

Longhair75 has spoken a number of times of being a devout Christian who is also a practicing Buddhist; I sincerely hope he sees this thread and addresses it.

I’m not drawn to Buddhism; its “style” (or rather, the different styles of the various schools of Buddhist praxis that I’ve encountered) have not been my cup of tea. But I can see that the matrix in which it operates is not in any necessary error from a Christian perspective.

And in one fell swoop Polycarp comes in and makes the most intelligent and encompassing post yet. Today you earned my respect my friend.

As a practicing Buddhist (of mainly the Zen variety) with a Christian upbringing and a scientifinc occupation, I might be able to shed a little light. The two are not mutually exclusive, just as science and religion are not mutually exclusive. As I see it, Buddhism is a way of viewing the world and your interaction with the world. It allows you to examine your actions and thoughts and reevaluate. More so than “detachment” I prefer “letting go”. If something is troubling you and you can’t help it, let it go. Constant worry. Let it go. Don’t think, just be. Never have I found more peace and happiness than just being. Now here is where you can integrate any theism you like.

In just existing, you get in touch with the world around you on a different level. You are no longer interpreting, just experiencing and that allows me to see the beauty of the whole system. Combine that with my scientific knowledge of how the system actually works and it’s quite an impressive experience. Here, if you so choose, you can see a plan with in this system. Personally, I’m not a fan of Intelligent Design or the like, and that’s not the issue here. I prefer to just appreciate the beauty of everything around me for what it is. But one could easily see this beauty as a work of the god of your choice.

For me, I can weep at the beauty of just seeing the stars and laugh out loud by just touching the trees. And yes, I’m a guy, who cries…from time to time.

How can you say you are Christian and Buddhist at the same time?
The Buddha taught that there is no GOD. No supernatual being that created the world or you. There is no Supreme Being that will SAVE you. There is no judge of our rights and wrongs.
I am interested to know. Or have I misunderstood?

IMHO, you have.

Gautama Buddha was for the most part supremely indifferent to questions of the supernatural such as the existence and nature of God. Rather, he dealt with achieving peace of mind, detachment, through overcoming within the self the distractions of emotion and desire that lead one to focus on the things of everyday life that distract and preoccupy one.

He worked within a culture based on the Hindu polytheism and so far as anyone knows knew nothing of Judaism (since he flourished around 600 BC, obviously he was unaware of Christianity, which had not as yet been founded).

To say that he denied salvation or divine judgment is much like saying that the theory of relativity denies the proper baking temperature for a cheese soufflé – it doesn’t even address the issue.

Some schools of Buddhism-as-a-religion (equivalent to Christian denominations) are in fact in strong disagreement with Christianity. But the basic Buddhist doctrine is not.

Jesus’s teaching, from the Sermon on the Mount:

Gautama Buddha, from here:

I’m sorry, but that is demonstratably not true … towit:

The above comments tell me beyond a shadow of a doubt that you consider Christianity to be the only religion that matters … that it is the one true religion. And that’s fine. Really, I’m not being fascetious. You are entitled to your beliefs.

I don’t really want to argue with you about it either. We will only butt heads in that I consider, “The Bible is truth and that’s all there is to it,” pointless to argue against, just as I’m sure you feel it pointless to defend.

But … I think you’re wrong about something you’ve assumed about me. I “get” Christianity. I understand fully why the faithful have faith … I get it, I just don’t agree with it … or believe in it for that matter.

Thanks to you guys here who have reacted to my opinions on Buddhism, thanks a lot. I have honestly learned to mellow down my Catholic biases, however much I consider myself to be a liberated postgraduate Roman Catholic.

But I do still have one question to ask the people here who are really into Buddhism, yet living outside hard core Buddhistic societies like the ones of Thailand, Burma, Tibet, and maybe also South Korea. Should you go and live in a home and with a family of Buddhists who are active with their religion; tell me honestly even before you launch into that trip, don’t you think that you will find them quite alien to your idea of what Buddhism is all about, the one that you are living in and cultivating in your home environment away from hard core Buddhist societies?

I just wonder if you guys here have my impression of religious teachings and practices among the masses who profess a religion and among the elites who discuss and write books about the same religion. What an ocean of differences? So, who really have the real or straight dope on what a religion in genuine essence is all about.

Consider the doctrine of the Trinity, a most distinctive and fundamental dogma of Christianity; yet the masses among Catholic faithfuls don’t know nothing about its theoretical subtleties; but they know Mother Mary and Infant Jesus.

What about you, Susma, what do you know about the Trinity? I can verbalize the formula of the Trinity dogma: three persons in one God, each one God, but one God just the same, the three of them or of one: the distinction is between person and substance and essence – three persons but one substance, one essence. If you push me further, I will declare that it’s a mystery – end of story.

So also, I suspect with Buddhism – of course I don’t know jack about Buddhism, but enough I believe than many a Buddhist in Bangkok. Who really know what Buddhism is all about? Over and above the differences of the various schools and various practices there must be some common lineaments to make Buddhism distinct from say Hinduism and certainly Shinto(ism) and definitely Islam and Christianity and Judaism.

I think my problem is really maybe about the nature of religious knowledge. It is certainly not the kind as we have in science and in technology or the kind we have in our legal documents like birth, marriage, and death certificates. Christianity has evolved into a very rationalistic religion or religious philosophy in its redaction of dogmatic and moral teachings into logical propositions. You people who are into Buddhism, do you see such a development and institution in Buddhism?

If not, how do we get to know in a rationalistic manner what Buddhism is all about? I am just a soul trying to find out what exactly is religion, even though I have been living a Roman Catholic faith all my life to the extent that I end up a postgraduate one. Is Buddhism a religion at all in the same sense that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are? Whether yes or no, how is it to be assimilated into our being? the way as with Judaism, Christianity, or Islam?

Susma Rio Sep

Polycarp,
I am sorry that I misunderstood. You can find similarites in the words of Christ and Buddha. Both were teachers of the human mind and both were compassionate beings.
Even though Buddha did not say “There is no God.” he did teach that all things are created from causes and conditions. Therefore not by the will of a god. And he taught that one must find the path to liberation within oneself. You can not be saved by outside forces.
I find the differences important and meaningful. The difference between faith and reason is vast.
Each person must find his path. There are several to chose from. that is good.
Metta

I am unsure on how we got to the topic of Catholicism. Believe me, I know a great deal about Catholicism and because of what I know I am looking elsewhere. No offense to anyone who is Catholic, but I do not believe it represents me at all.

I believe religion is a community coming together under one roof. But faith is something personal and no two people think the same about anything much less god, what happens after death and morality.

Therefore, religion is just defaulting to thinking a certain way when you’re looking for black and white answers to life. However, we live in a gray world. Life is hard. Religion can’t solve anything, but what’s in you can help you get through the hard times and enjoy the good times.

The political nature of religions turns me off: ‘the boycott this’, ‘support this’, ‘don’t like them’ and ‘think this way’ nature of religion burns me up. The ‘brain trust’ reaction to something in the news, a group of people etc. is scary.

So, maybe what I am looking for is not so much a Buddhist way of thinking but a Lupin way of thinking that emulates a happy, successful, peaceful way of being.

I can talk tough, but I am peaceful and thoughtful in nature. I need to think in a way that allows me to remain this way and be happy. I believe I can achieve that.

Thank you for all your input on Buddhism. It has (shall I say it?) “enlightened” me. Ha.

This thread has become derailed a bit, but far be it from me to oppose critical thinking and debate. Please continue.

:slight_smile:

One of the ideas that formulations of Buddhism tend to put stock into is that people are very much thrown hither and yon by inner urges; that the unleashed mind will dart off in all directions with furious blind strength.

I think the proof of this is demonstrated time and again with every thread hijack. :slight_smile:

I would suggest that it is closer to a right view and speech here to instead say: this is not a nature of religion–it is a nature of humans, be they secular or religious or anything in between. No system of thought can deliver from the burning, because the burning up is people.

The Buddhist story that first really struck me in a way that made me sit up and start learning what it was all about is a bit about an aggravated king demanding of the Buddha, “Are you a god?”

“No,” Gautama replied.

“Then are you a deva, or a spirit or saint?”

“I am none of these.”

“Then what are you?”

“I am awake.”

Polycarp:

Well, since this is Great Debates…

:slight_smile:

…I’m going to take the opportunity to disagree with you, at least partially.

I assume you’re referring to Pseudo-Dionysius the Aeropagite (sp?) and the via negativa. If I’ve understood correctly, the via negativa involves establishing a more direct contact with God by focussing on what he is not. Since our mental world (and human language) is entirely too limited to actually capture the essence of God, except in terms of analogies which are also often misleading, “negative” meditation usually involves pairing polar opposites and asserting that neither characteristic accurately describes God. The idea behind the practice, putting it crudely, is to sort of “short-circuit” one’s normal mode of thought in order to realize a greater truth. So, for example, “God is not hate,” (obviously), but, “God is not love,” either, since the human concept of “love” is far too limited to capture the infinite love of God. Basically, the via negativa implies that you have to stop thinking about God if you really want to get to know him.

I’m not familiar the meditation techniques involved in Christian “negative mysticism,” so there may be many parallels/similarities between it Buddhist practice. And I’m sure as well that there are many points of similarity between the two religions. But there are a couple of very significant differences that may be worth noting as well, in my opinion. I want to briefly mention two of them.

To begin with, let us say that a “religion” serves to 1) explicate a specific existential dilemma, and 2) offer a solution to that dilemma. With Christianity, the existential dilemma is sin, understood basically as separation from God. The solution to sin is salvation, or reunion with God, achieved partially through of faith, but primarily through of grace. As I understand it, anyway, it is through the grace of God that man’s sins are washed away; this is the fundamental message of the Christian church.

By contrast, the dilemma explicated by Buddhism is that of suffering. As a solution, Buddhism offers is the eight-fold path of monastic practice. One significant difference between Buddhism and Christianity, therefore, is that of agency. In Christianity, the agency of salvation is outside the self; God saves through his Grace. In Buddhism, the agency of salvation is the self, and the self alone; it is only by virtue of personal exertion that one can become a stream-winner, eventually working oneself free from the bonds of karma. Hence the significance of Buddha’s last words: “Be a light unto yourselves, o monks, and work diligently for your own salvation.” Buddha seems to be signaling here that, in the end, we can only rely upon ourselves; no external, supernatural agent can save us from the bonds of karmic suffering. In that sense, Buddhism is radically different from Christianity.

So in a way, stellablue (love the name, by the way!) is right. While Buddha did not teach that there were no Gods – he probably believed that there were, in fact – he did teach that no God can save you; even the Gods are bound to the same law of Karma as the smallest ant. That particular perspective was not unique to Buddhism, though; it was accepted wisdom within mainstream Hinduism as well.

The second really major difference between Buddhism and Christianity, as I see it, is the problem of permanence. Christianity is based on the concept of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. If he’s anything, God is eternal, a permanent existent spirit. I’m quite sure that Buddha would wag a warning finger at that idea, and tell you that you suffer from “wrong view” (right view, as you noted, is the first fold of eight on the path). “Nothing is permanent in samsara,” he would no doubt say; “Not you, not me, not the earth, not the universe, not God.” That point was, in fact, what made Buddhism such a radical school of mysticism when it first originated, since it contradicted Hindu doctrine as well (Brahman and atman were thought to be permanent).

That said, I’m quite sure that Buddhist practice can be harmoniously sewed into Christian belief, as you point out, particularly if one isn’t too dogmatic about the whole thing. Technically speaking, what one believes in is of rather less importance in Buddhism than how one practices; insight meditation, it is believed, will eventually lead everyone who practices it to realize the same truths. So there is nothing inherently contradictory about believing in a Christian God and practicing vipassana, technically. And at the lay level, there are surprising similarities between Buddhist and Christian practice; they basically forbid most of the same activities, for example.

Oh well… so much for my two cents.

Considering what you posted, I’m not so sure I would be quick to dismiss Buddhism just yet. If you are peaceful and thoughtful in nature, and looking for a path that leads to a happy, peaceful way of being, Buddhism may still help you in that quest. Buddhism encourages the thoughtful nature that you suggest, asking that you question all aspects of it, rather than blindly follow. And from what I have read so far on the subject, Buddhism does not put down other religions or try to invalidate them. In fact, the Dahli Lama has said that there is a lot to learn from Christianity in the area of charity and helping others. I find that sort of inclusiveness appealing and refreshing.

I think one can study and appreciate the path and practices of Buddhism, and gain some insight, without necessarily considering it a religion at all.

Good luck with your quest!

Mr. Svinlesha, It is true there are many people who meditate who are not trying to reach enlightenment. Many use it for relaxation or with an exercise program. But in the Buddhist way of thinking this tool is not to relax after yoga class. The Buddha taught insight meditation leading to the liberation of the mind. Yes there are many levels of all religions. Somehow a bit from one and a bit from another seems to make for a weak spirtual practice. Just my HO.

Well, I can tell you about my personal experience with Zen Buddhism. I became interested in it after taking an Eastern Philosophy class and sauntered on over to the local Zen Center to see what it was all about. I took a beginner class in which they showed me the different positions for the sitting meditation and explained the general ideas. Since then, I’ve met a wide variety of practitioners.
Some people believe in reincarnation, the words of the Buddha, and other mystical-sounding things. The great thing is, though, that right after someone would share their beliefs with me, they would immediately tell me that I didn’t have to believe any of that stuff. Furthermore, everyone assured me that Zen was not “the only way” and encouraged me to try other religions and philosophies if I desired. The only requirement for Zen is the belief that the meditation might be beneficial. Personally, I don’t believe in Enlightenment at all. After all, it’s supposedly something that has to be individually experienced. All I know is that I find the meditation relaxing. I also find it fascinating how sitting can bring such intensity to moments that I would have otherwise ignored.
So, while I would encourage you to check out Buddhism if you’re interested, remember that there are many different kinds and you personally need to find out if any of them are right for you. Good luck, and keep an open mind.

ElbaliavanU, Susma Rio Sep, would you MIND taking your Christianity hijacks elsewhere? This is about BUDDHISM, NOT Catholicism. NOT Christianity. Therefore, it is rude to continue jerking the conversation over to these topics.

I find myself attracted to Buddhism, at times, and I’d like to know more about it.

Amen to that.
oops.