# Budget Near Collapse as GOP Leader Quits!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2011, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686 "2011-06-24T09:08:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/81 "2011-06-24T21:37:23Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Greece is imploding from debt. The only thing standing between them and default is lending terms agreed to with outside sources. Nobody is forced to buy their debt. Again, you seem to not understand what not increasing our debt ceiling would do to us. [http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/debt\_ceiling](http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/debt_ceiling) “Strings” is a little tame. How about, “fucking the economy so deep it pukes jizz”? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/82 "2011-06-24T21:44:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > You’re not overspending if you’re purchasing things you need. You’re not making enough money if you can’t purchase necessities. As it happens the government has the capacity to earn more money. > > And before you get all monkeypunch crazy on me, the congress decides what we need. I forgot you were the king of monkey punching expertise. You should change your name to grayback. Putting your vast experience in this area aside (I concede to your brilliance in this most important of matters) please explain the concept that Congress decides what we need. We have a constitution that was written in great clarity as to the responsibilities and limitations Congress and I don’t recall anything about that being in their job description. Your premise that they decide what we need would suggest that every stupid thing they earmark is needed. Should we go back and refund the bridge to nowhere after it got so much public reaction? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/83 "2011-06-24T21:57:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I forgot you were the king of monkey punching expertise. You should change your name to grayback. > > Putting your vast experience in this area aside (I concede to your brilliance in this most important of matters) please explain the concept that Congress decides what we need. We have a constitution that was written in great clarity as to the responsibilities and limitations Congress and I don’t recall anything about that being in their job description. Your premise that they decide what we need would suggest that every stupid thing they earmark is needed. Should we go back and refund the bridge to nowhere after it got so much public reaction? I have no illusions that you will actually learn anything here and develop as a person, since in the monkey punch thread you ignorantly argued against the laws of physics for ten pages… But in the interests of making you look like a fucking idiot, I will do my best. Congress is elected by people. It makes laws that determine the specific functioning of our government. If there is a bridge, it’s because the people, in the form of congress, have decided we needed one. If you think there is something we don’t need, you should elect people who will get rid of it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/84 "2011-06-24T22:01:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, you seem to not understand what not increasing our debt ceiling would do to us. > > [http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/debt\_ceiling](http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/debt_ceiling) > > “Strings” is a little tame. How about, “fucking the economy so deep it pukes jizz”? By your logic we will continue raising the debt until the end of time. Actually the end of time is when people stop lending us money. But before that happens the increases in debt will lower our credit rating which will raise the cost of debt. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/85 "2011-06-24T22:26:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The Bush tax cuts quite certainly do not account for the enture U.S. federal deficit, as you seem to be suggesting. > > The Congressional Budget Office has produced estimates of an annual cost of $300 to $400 billion a year for continuing the Bush tax cuts; by way of comparison, the deficit now stands well north of $1500 billion. Are you under the impression that our structural deficit is 1500 billion or are you just saying that to make the bush tax buts look very small? What does the deficit look like without the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq (~$150 billion, which presumably will be winding down over the next several years)? What does the deficit look like without the wars and without the bipartisan stimulus stimulus packages (~$400 billion, which is pretty much done in 2011)? What does the deficit look like without the wars, the stimulus and with a normal economy. So if you back out another $300 billion for the Bush tax cuts (note this is ALL of them, not just the ones for those making more than $250,000 (in which case the increase in revenue is only about $80 billion/year), then you get pretty darn close to that 1.5 trillion deficit. Bush inherited a surplus. Much or the road between there and here was paved by the wars in the middle east, the stimulus and the revenue, the costs of the recession, AND the Bush tax cuts. The war will eventually end, the stimulus is already pretty much over and the recession will not be here forever but the Bush tax cuts seem to be taking root as the Republicans have taken repealing the Bush tax cuts “off the table” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/86 "2011-06-24T22:30:19Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > While I don’t know that anyone was actually suggesting what you state they were suggesting, it is correct to say that the Bush tax cuts do not account for the entirety of the US federal debt. > > However, they are far and away the largest contributor to the debt, and proportionally grow more significant over time. Please see the chart via the link below, which you’ve probably seen before if you pay attention to the news on this sort of thing: > > [Bush-Era Tax Cuts Projected As Largest Contributor To Public Debt [CHART] | HuffPost Impact](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/20/bush-tax-cuts-debt_n_864812.html) That’s only because its had a ten year head start, medicare will catch up eventually and then eclipse it. Just because the Republicans think that medicare is a problem doesn’t mean that it isn’t a problem. The real problem is that the only real solution to medicare is a combination of universal health care (which republicans don’t like) and cutting benefits (which democrats don’t like). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/87 "2011-06-24T22:34:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Congress is elected by people. It makes laws that determine the specific functioning of our government. If there is a bridge, it’s because the people, in the form of congress, have decided we needed one. They did in fact, decide to build an expensive bridge in Alaska that served few people. It got a lot of flack for wasteful spending. They then un-decided to build it. Should we build the bridge? > [@Lobohan](#): > > If you think there is something we don’t need, you should elect people who will get rid of it. Funny you should mention that given the last election. That’s exactly what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/88 "2011-06-24T22:38:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yah, you tell that to the credit card company if you ever see the need to brighten someone’s day. > [Overspending](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overspending): Overspending is spending more money than one can afford. It is a common problem when easy credit is available. This can also be called ‘investing’ in the public sector when infrastructure payments exceed actual calculated cost.[1] > > By my definition you are within your budget and have a surplus. The other side of the overspending coin is being undertaxed. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/89 "2011-06-24T22:49:12Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They did in fact, decide to build an expensive bridge in Alaska that served few people. It got a lot of flack for wasteful spending. They then un-decided to build it. Should we build the bridge? I know about the bridge to nowhere. We should do what congress decided to do. I assume you now understand that the congress decides on what we need, right? > [@](#): > > Funny you should mention that given the last election. That’s exactly what happened. I’m also aware of the results of the last election. There are a lot of people who are stupid, angry and ignorant. And the Tea Party got them to turn out. And now the congress, including the TP halfwits are deciding what we need. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/90 "2011-06-24T22:49:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Butter has gone up a lot lately. You know what else has gone up a lot? Milk. Everything else at our grocery store has been pretty stable. Gosh, [what could be the common denominator?](http://www2.timesdispatch.com/business/2011/jun/24/TDMET01-dairy-farms-still-recovering-from-price-co-ar-1129932/) > > I know. Democrats!!! Democrats have made me lactose intolerant, God damn them. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/91 "2011-06-24T22:54:08Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The other side of the overspending coin is being undertaxed. No, not really. Not until you’ve eliminated all unnecessary spending. Congress, when looking at the Constitution, has a very limited role. It is subject to abuse when a person is in a position to buy a vote by promising to spend money. “A chicken in every pot” is an easy statement to make but that doesn’t mean it can be budgeted for. It’s easy for a union or business to buy that vote and even easier for a politician to sell it. There are no penalties for fiduciary malfeasance. When you talk about talking money from someone (taxes) there is a responsibility to spend it wisely and also to limit what it is spent on. Again, going back to the constitution the duties of our elected officials are limited. They should be held to a standard of financial care in both respects. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/92 "2011-06-24T22:58:04Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Congress, when looking at the Constitution, has a very limited role. Not WRT money. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/93 "2011-06-24T23:04:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I know about the bridge to nowhere. We should do what congress decided to do. I assume you now understand that the congress decides on what we need, right? sooooo, should we build the bridge or not? They decided both ways? Which vote counts in your book? Are there projects like that which can be cut? > [@Lobohan](#): > > I’m also aware of the results of the last election. There are a lot of people who are stupid, angry and ignorant. And the Tea Party got them to turn out. And now the congress, including the TP halfwits are deciding what we need. soooooo, the people who don’t agree with you are stupid for electing the people who decide on what we need? It seems logical that when voters are presented with a Congress that continues to raise the level of debt that they would vote for people who would get it under control. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/94 "2011-06-24T23:20:38Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And how exactly, does a tax cut “cost” anything? spending more than is taken in is how debt is incurred. > > We have politicians that overspend regardless of the tax rate. It’s pretty simple math to deal with. I agree. And it has shit all to do with President Obama. The legislature controls the purse strings for this country, not the President. When we have spending of x, it is entirely because that is what congress has enacted (in the budget they pass). When we have revenue of y, it is entirely due to the tax structure they have set up. The president, outside of veto power, has no real control of this process; so I don’t understand why people are putting this mess at Obama’s doorstep. Regardless of all this, the top marginal tax rate is low and revenue from corporate taxes has been dropping at the same time outlays have been going up. The rich in this country, including corporations, have made a dramatic shift in the preceding two decades. They have stopped financing the US through taxes, and are now financing the US by loaning it money… Meh… One quick question, can you imagine what the reaction would be if the Democrats said that reducing the deficit by cutting spending was a non-starter? This is about how extreme I view the Republicans; that any attempts to raise revenue are off the table for them while they claim that the future of this country is on the line makes me dismiss them as a bunch of ridiculous ideologues. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/95 "2011-06-24T23:23:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Are you under the impression that our structural deficit is 1500 billion or are you just saying that to make the bush tax buts look very small? > > What does the deficit look like without the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq (~$150 billion, which presumably will be winding down over the next several years)? > > What does the deficit look like without the wars and without the bipartisan stimulus stimulus packages (~$400 billion, which is pretty much done in 2011)? > > What does the deficit look like without the wars, the stimulus and with a normal economy. > > So if you back out another $300 billion for the Bush tax cuts (note this is ALL of them, not just the ones for those making more than $250,000 (in which case the increase in revenue is only about $80 billion/year), then you get pretty darn close to that 1.5 trillion deficit. > > Bush inherited a surplus. Much or the road between there and here was paved by the wars in the middle east, the stimulus and the revenue, the costs of the recession, AND the Bush tax cuts. > > The war will eventually end, the stimulus is already pretty much over and the recession will not be here forever but the Bush tax cuts seem to be taking root as the Republicans have taken repealing the Bush tax cuts “off the table” Quoted for truth. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/96 "2011-06-24T23:43:52Z")
> [@L. G. Butts](#): > > I agree. And it has shit all to do with President Obama. The legislature controls the purse strings for this country, not the President. . you are absolutely right that congress makes the budget but you cannot ignore the President’s influence as he puts forth his own budget and that is listened to even at a greater level when they in the same party. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/97 "2011-06-24T23:53:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > sooooo, should we build the bridge or not? They decided both ways? Which vote counts in your book? Are there projects like that which can be cut? the final vote counts, stupid. Don’t you know anything? > [@](#): > > soooooo, the people who don’t agree with you are stupid for electing the people who decide on what we need? no, the people who don’t understand the debt ceiling is important and think cutting taxes raises revenue in all cases are stupid. You know, people like you. > [@](#): > > It seems logical that when voters are presented with a Congress that continues to raise the level of debt that they would vote for people who would get it under control. The republicans are the ones who raise the debt. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/98 "2011-06-24T23:58:36Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > the people who… think cutting taxes raises revenue in all cases are stupid. I’d like to see any case of that in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/99 "2011-06-25T00:08:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > the final vote counts, stupid. Don’t you know anything? > > . They were both final vote counts. Which one was correct? One vote was for the bridge. Another vote was to cancel the bridge? You don’t seem to grasp the concept that there is government waste. You are as dense as the politicians who were voted out of office. In your world we just keep raising the debt limit until we are in the same situation as Greece. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686/100 "2011-06-25T00:13:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > No, not really. Not until you’ve eliminated all unnecessary spending. Of course, “unnecessary” is quite easily defined no doubt. Probably “That spending that **Magiver** does not agree with” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/budget-near-collapse-as-gop-leader-quits/586686.md?page=6)