# Buehrle pitched a perfect game today **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 23, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035 "2009-07-23T20:55:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/61 "2009-07-24T18:42:58Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Buehrle’s record before this year was 122-87, a .584 winning percentage. Counting his 11-3 start this year he is now 133-90, a .596 winning percentage. Greg Maddux’s lifetime winning percentage was .610. Comparing Buehrle and a Hall of Famer’s Hall of Famer like Maddux probably isn’t fair, but if you think these guys are actually comparable… In his Cy Young years, Maddux went 20-11, 20-10, 16-6, and 19-2. (Percentage: .721.) He was 26 in the first of Cy Young year and 29 at the end. Buehrle’s records in the same seasons, by age? 16-8, 12-13, 10-9, 15-12. (.558.) He is now 30. If you stick to Maddux’s best years in terms of winning, much less his real peak - I mean chopping off his first two weak years with the Cubs, and his last four years - he’s much better than .610. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/62 "2009-07-24T19:00:23Z")
There was probably a faster way to do this, but I lopped off those years of Maddux’s career and calculated a winning percentage of 65.6%. I can’t do the same thing for Buehrle because it would hurt his results. But his best single-season WP is 66.7%, which is only a little better than Maddux’s WP from 1988 to 2004, inclusive. If you’d like me to pretend I really understand ERA+, I’ll tell you that Buehrle’s career best is 144, in 2005. Maddux topped that number in ten seasons. Buehrle’s career average figure is 123, Maddux’s average over his 11 seasons in Atlanta was 163. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/63 "2009-07-24T19:13:59Z")
Look, I understand that Buehrle isn’t as good as Maddux. But his winning percentage is nothing to sneeze at. For a more realistic contemporary comparison, we have C. C. Sabathia, who broke in at about the same time as Buehrle, and is 127-79 (.616). He has never had a 20-win season and has won more than 17 only once. I have no idea whether Sabathia will be a Hall of Famer, but my point is, if we hold on to 20-win seasons and 300-win careers as the standard of greatness in an era of pitch counts, we’ll diminsh the accomplishments of _every_ pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/64 "2009-07-24T19:25:52Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > 1992: [Matt Young](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/boxscore/04121992.shtml) throws a no-hitter for the Red Sox, but 7 walks and an error means he loses to Cleveland, 2-1. > > I remember that game - he sucked as much as he usually did, and hardly anyone even noticed the no-hitter until it was almost over. Few congratulations came his way, only incredulity at the fluke. I listened to that game on the radio. It was amusing, even though they lost. Of course, that wasn’t unusual that year (they finished last in the east, 23 games back). ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/65 "2009-07-24T19:29:15Z")
I was going through the list of HOF pitchers to see if there was any comparables (or to see who would really qualify as the threshhold bar to reach). Can someone tell me how in the world Bob Lemon made the HOF? > [@Freddy the Pig](#): > > Look, I understand that Buehrle isn’t as good as Maddux. But his winning percentage is nothing to sneeze at. Of course it is. Winning percentage should always be sneezed at. It’s pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/66 "2009-07-24T20:34:45Z")
I like how no one even bothered to mention Field’s grand slam. That’s nothing to sneeze at either. He’s sitting around in the locker room, all lonely, and everyone slapping Buehrle on the back. He’s like, “I did OK too, right guys? Right?” Poor guy. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/67 "2009-07-24T22:06:10Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Of course it is. Winning percentage should always be sneezed at. It’s pointless. Yeah, but if baseball journalism is anything to go by, there are quite few members of the BBWAA who think that it’s a valuable statistic. And these are the guys who vote in the HoF election. So while it might not tell us anything much about a pitcher’s ability, it might tell us something about the likelihood of him making the Hall. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/68 "2009-07-24T22:37:15Z")
That’s a very legitimate point. But stop encouraging them! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/69 "2009-07-26T08:46:29Z")
> [@cricetus](#): > > I’m comfortable saying the chances at a no-contact game are vanishingly small, i.e., statistically impossible. I would agree, with any pitcher that has ever pitched so far. If a pitcher comes along, a freak of nature the likes hasn’t existed before, who throws, say 110 mph, then it could be done. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/70 "2009-07-26T14:12:54Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > I would agree, with any pitcher that has ever pitched so far. If a pitcher comes along, a freak of nature the likes hasn’t existed before, who throws, say 110 mph, then it could be done. There already was(maybe). [Steve Dalkowski.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dalkowski) There is some question of how fast he was but it appears he was faster than any major leaguer. He also had serious control problems. Games 236 IP 995 H 682 BB 1354 SO 1396 W 46 L 80 ERA 5.59 ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/71 "2009-07-27T03:22:32Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > I would agree, with any pitcher that has ever pitched so far. If a pitcher comes along, a freak of nature the likes hasn’t existed before, who throws, say 110 mph, then it could be done. No, it really couldn’t. 110 mph is barely faster than the average major league pitcher. Figure 90 or so for the average pitcher, with 98 being somewhat common, and 102 or 103 being possible. 110 just isn’t enough of a difference to take out foul tips. Again, virtually anyone who has ever played baseball at any level with anything approaching success (I’m talking you were a starter on your little league team), could face a major league pitcher for 27 at bats and weakly foul one back. You’d get no-hit. They’d probably even throw a perfect game against you. But I promise that given 90 or so strikes thrown at you, you’d tip one back into the mitt. And if we’re talking about a major league batter…well, I’d bet my life on it to win $100. I’d put down $1000 straight up for any random high school baseball player vs. Mark Buerhle or any other current major leaguer. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/72 "2009-07-27T13:36:52Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > I like how no one even bothered to mention Field’s grand slam. That’s nothing to sneeze at either. He’s sitting around in the locker room, all lonely, and everyone slapping Buehrle on the back. He’s like, “I did OK too, right guys? Right?” Poor guy. Ah, he’ll be fine. Turns out he’s the first guy ever to hit a grand slam in a perfect game. > [@mhendo](#): > > Yeah, but if baseball journalism is anything to go by, there are quite few members of the BBWAA who think that it’s a valuable statistic. And these are the guys who vote in the HoF election. So while it might not tell us anything much about a pitcher’s ability, it might tell us something about the likelihood of him making the Hall. If we relied on more valuable measurements I think we’d still find Buehrle falls way short. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/73 "2009-07-27T13:40:49Z")
> [@Bootis](#): > > I would agree, with any pitcher that has ever pitched so far. If a pitcher comes along, a freak of nature the likes hasn’t existed before, who throws, say 110 mph, then it could be done. I don’t think so either. Speed gives less margin of error for batters, but after a couple at-bats, major leaguers could adjust to 110 mph, just like they can hit 95 mph. If the hypothetical freak could put a big curve on that 100 mph pitch, and had an 85-mph change-up that looked identical to the fastball coming out of his hand, and had a pitch that broke hard the opposite direction from the fastball (and looked identical coming out) and pinpoint control, and mental toughness and (with his catcher) a good sense of how to read what batters are expecting, then he’d be a great pitcher with a chance of throwing some no-hitters and a way-outside chance of a perfect game. But still no chance of a guaranteed no-contact game unless all those other pitches are also superhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/74 "2009-07-27T14:05:14Z")
> [@Flymaster](#): > > No, it really couldn’t. 110 mph is barely faster than the average major league pitcher. Figure 90 or so for the average pitcher, with 98 being somewhat common, and 102 or 103 being possible. Those are not fair assumptions in the least. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/75 "2009-07-27T14:24:04Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Those are not fair assumptions in the least. Do tell. I don’t think I’ve watched a major league game this year where someone didn’t hit 95, virtually every team has someone capable of hitting 98, and Zumaya, Mark Wohlers, and Matt Anderson have all hit 103 in the past. Speed isn’t really what kills. Little leaguers who will never even sniff a big league career can hit a 70 mph fastball from 15 feet closer than major leaguers are throwing it from, and any grown man with 75 cents can show he can hit a straight fastball at 90mph in the batting cages. I’m not saying a 110 mph pitcher wouldn’t be dominant at the major league level: if he had good control, and some movement, he would be. I’m saying that the gap between “dominant at the major league level” and “wouldn’t allow a foul tip” is so mind bogglingly enormous that it’s not even worth contemplating what it would take to bridge it. It is not within the human capability to do so. 110 mph isn’t even close to that ability level. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/76 "2009-07-27T14:53:00Z")
[Some numbers to help you](http://www.baseball-fever.com/showthread.php?t=55873) > [@](#): > > […]the average fastball speed in 2006, for a pitcher with at least 162 IP is 90 MPH. > > […] > > The most number of fastballs thrown over 100 mph was by Joel Zumaya with 233, followed by Kyle Farnsworth with ONLy 23. Zumaya’s average is 98.6 MPH. > the fastest starter is Helix Hernandez with 95.2 Slowest is Mark Redman with 84.1 I’m not sure what part of the post **Munch** objects to. About the only thing I could see is one’s definition of “somewhat common.” ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/77 "2009-07-27T15:24:28Z")
> [@Flymaster](#): > > Do tell. I’m not arguing that a no contact game is possible - I’m saying that 110 is nowhere near “barely faster” than your average MLB pitcher - it’s worlds beyond “barely”. And for starters 98 is in no way “common”. There’s a reason those who throw 100+ are relief specialists. ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/78 "2009-07-27T15:30:24Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I’m not arguing that a no contact game is possible - I’m saying that 110 is nowhere near “barely faster” than your average MLB pitcher - it’s worlds beyond “barely”. And for starters 98 is in no way “common”. There’s a reason those who throw 100+ are relief specialists. Well, then I think we’re in violent agreement. I take issue with “worlds beyond”, in that I don’t think it would be a transformational moment for major league baseball, or anything…he’d just likely be very, very, very good, but other than that…sure. Deduct 2 mph from my totals if you like, and remove the word “barely”, but the fact is, our theoretical 110 mph pitcher would likely top out as a “no hitter once a year” kind of guy, mixed in with Pedro 1999 performances along the way. He’s much, much closer to your average MLB pitcher than he is to being capable of throwing 81 strikes without allowing a foul ball. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/79 "2009-07-27T15:31:04Z")
Additionally - as you say, “speed isn’t really what kills”. It’s the perceived difference. The average change up is 82 mph, and the average fastball is 91 mph. Change that difference from 9 mph to 28 mph (assuming a 110 mph fastball), and that pitcher is not just dominant, he’s going to seriously contend for greatest pitcher of all time. He’s going to make Gibson and Koufax look like amateurs, and probably end up with a sub 1.50 ERA and some ridiculously low WHIP (depending on how many BBs he gives up). ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035/80 "2009-07-27T15:33:48Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Additionally - as you say, “speed isn’t really what kills”. It’s the perceived difference. The average change up is 82 mph, and the average fastball is 91 mph. Change that difference from 9 mph to 28 mph (assuming a 110 mph fastball), and that pitcher is not just dominant, he’s going to seriously contend for greatest pitcher of all time. He’s going to make Gibson and Koufax look like amateurs, and probably end up with a sub 1.50 ERA and some ridiculously low WHIP (depending on how many BBs he gives up). Sure, I’ll grant this. I still think one of the Molinas would have no problem fouling some of his pitches off. Again, I think we agree. He’d be other-worldly good, but not even close to foul-proof. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buehrle-pitched-a-perfect-game-today/504035.md?page=5)