# Buffy 01/07/03 Showtime \[spoilers\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 6, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037 "2003-01-06T23:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/81 "2003-01-10T16:46:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > \*\*IMO, if an opponent thrashes you THAT seriously, its gonna take a little more than attitude to prevail when next you meet. Barring a major change of strategy or weaponry, neither of which Buffy employed. \*\* Exactly. What is disappointing is that Buffy has shown in the past that she can develop new strategies and weaponry. It felt like poor writing to me. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/82 "2003-01-10T17:16:01Z")
Whoa, **pepper**! Where did you get that tidbit from?!? Ack! The future doesn’t bode well _at all_! ☹ ☹ ☹ ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/83 "2003-01-10T17:46:50Z")
I know a few people who work for UPN and have the numbers. I don’t know if that fact is documented in the news anywhere though, it might be. ---
**Author:** ![Interrobang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/interrobang/32/17463_2.png) [@Interrobang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interrobang)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/84 "2003-01-10T18:12:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > But back then, ME had to establish that Willow was indeed gay. And she herself was “coming out” and showing her ambivalence about this was also important. No need for that now. Yeah, but I don’t mean just in the relationship-establishing department. (Actually, I remember Tara and Willows first few nebulous meetings being very high-chemistry, in part because, at the time, no one was sure where that was going or what exactly was going on.) But once they were an established couple, the chemistry rarely put in an appearance. Not never, by any means. And it’s not that I didn’t like them – Tara was cool, Willow was cool, Tara and Willow were cool. But they didn’t really have the spark of most of the other relationships on the show. Of course, I’ll admit it’s not really fair of me to be comparing the chemistry of a relationship that lasted for two seasons with one that’s just starting to show up over the course of two episodes. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/85 "2003-01-10T18:27:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\*Well, the reason I’m worried about Angel is because I’ve read the spoilers for the next like, 5 episodes . Plus the move to Wednesday nights opposite The West Wing and The Amazing Race is _not_ going ot help matters. > > UPN also loses 1 million dollars _per episode_ on Buffy. \*\* 5 Episodes? Man, you’re the spoiler queen! As far as the move to Wednesday night- the Sunday night competition was much more brutal- IMHO. West Wing has not been doing nearly as well ratings, or critic, wise this year. Amazing Race has never been the killer show ratings wise its reality show brothers have been. The Bachlorette may be a big ratings draw if it can hold its audience or avoid the inevitiable reality show backlash. My bigger concern is whether the WB will promote it enough in its new slot. Also, spoilage wise I am clean, but IMHO the Connor situation is a bit of a disaster though. He is this year’s Dawn. 😉 Buffy might be costing UPN some serious dough, but most of the ratings and cost problems are plaguing UPN as a whole. Enterprise is becoming a ratings and critical failure, and costs them a boat load of money to make. Also, UPN spent a lot to get the show and needs a “premier” show (especially with the great demographics) to show its advertisers and to cable systems which do not carry a UPN station yet. Buffy (despite some ups and downs) is still a critical sucess and gets pretty good ratings for a relatively craptastic network. So if SMG is on board, Buffy is back for another season. Too bad UPN would not just give it back to the WB. Crossovers and back to back with Angel for the last season. . . . 😃 One can dream, I guess. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/86 "2003-01-10T18:33:15Z")
> [@](#): > > But they didn’t really have the spark of most of the other relationships on the show. I agree. The buildup of the relationship was divine… I felt the wonderful frustration and confusion and (finally) release of the characters… which then promptly dropped off. This is rather unlike Xander and Buffy’s relationships, whose foibles and follies, trials and tribulations have been the focus of whole episodes more than a few times. **pepper** , that’s just crazy! I wasn’t looking for an honest-to-god cite, just wondering. Thanks, but still—ack! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/87 "2003-01-10T21:34:23Z")
I remember reading somewhere that WB wouldn’t allow a same-sex kiss for a long time – this may have been a small part of why Willow and Tara’s relationship lacked sparks. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/88 "2003-01-10T21:46:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DanielWithrow \* > \*\*I remember reading somewhere that WB wouldn’t allow a same-sex kiss for a long time – this may have been a small part of why Willow and Tara’s relationship lacked sparks. > > Daniel \*\* Willow and Tara’s relationship lacked sparks for three reasons: 1. There was no chemistry between the two actresses. 2. Regardless of their talents, neither actress could convincingly portray a lesbian. 3. The whole “Willow is gay” thing was so utterly unbelievable in the first place. PS - All 'shippers, please take it to the Pit - you have nothing to say that I haven’t heard before, and louder. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/89 "2003-01-10T21:52:13Z")
I watched this week’s ep with my wife in the room, and I’m glad I had it on tape, because I had to keep stopping and explaining just what was going on. This ep, and every one since the release of the Ubervamp, have been pretty weak as far as I’m concerned. (NOTE TO TV EXECS-- it’s still better than most crap on TV that I’m not going to bother watching! We just like to bitch about the stuff we love, y’hear?) The ubervamp is just not a convincing villain with that schlocky makeup. He’s cheesy, not scary. And the fighting has been _awful_, but I’m just picky. But the foreshadowing is there. Could be we end with an army of Slayers; maybe a Slayers’ Council. But we’re definitely heading towards a final wrap up. Oh, and has anyone else noticed that this is only the second on-screen decapitation on Buffy? (The first was by Dawn in last year’s season finale.) ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/90 "2003-01-10T22:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > - > > Oh, and has anyone else noticed that this is only the second on-screen decapitation on Buffy? (The first was by Dawn in last year’s season finale.) \*\* Pretty sure that isn’t true. Adam ripped a vamp’s head off, and I seem to recall one or two vamps getting beheaded here and there. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/91 "2003-01-10T23:15:41Z")
I think he means, we’ve only twice seen the actual decapitation, instead of the decapitation being strongly implied through editing and framing. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/92 "2003-01-11T00:45:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Barbarian \* > \*\* > The ubervamp is just not a convincing villain with that schlocky makeup. He’s cheesy, not scary. > \*\* It’s because he has to be so careful not to break a nail. Makes it hard to take him seriously when a little, schoolgirl can make a better fist. And his voice reminds me of something I saw on Sesame Street. And way too feral – made it like fighting a bald shitzhu. He _does_ bear an uncanny resemblance to GrrArgh, though. ---
**Author:** ![Peutl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d9b06d/32.png) [@Peutl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peutl)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/93 "2003-01-11T01:44:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dinsdale \* > **With the final fight with the vamp - the only things that seemed to hurt it were the holy water and poking him in the eye. So why didn’t she go for his other eye?** I kept telling the vamp, _Gouge her! Gouge her!_ Instead, he kept punching the Slayer who can take a punch in stride. Why not use those claws? I didn’t like the fight sequence - there were way too many _let me not follow up an attack so you can get your breath back and reposition yourself_ pauses from both of them. I admit I didn’t see the previous episode. Did she ever try to use the infamous rocket launcher? I also wasn’t sure why one-on-one combat was necessary. (Except for Buffy thinking she needs to show off, er, Teach An Important Lesson, to the kids). Why not have Willow throw some magic around at the same time, or why not have everyone rush him - yes, someone probably gets hurt, but I bet Buffy garottes him a lot faster when he’s looking in another direction at the Slayerettes running toward him. ---
**Author:** ![MaddyStrut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dbc845/32.png) [@MaddyStrut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaddyStrut)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/94 "2003-01-11T02:08:38Z")
Okay, my theory is that the oracle wasn’t talking about Buffy or Faith. It was talking about one of the SIT. One of them is secretly a follower/disciple of TFE, so the bringers and the ubervamp are all out to dispose of every potential slayer except for that one. However, part of the mission of the ubervamp (and other demons TFE may bring forth) is to keep Buffy et. al. distracted. After the ubervamp, TFE is going to keep bringing in greater and greater demons (meanwhile, knocking off a few SIT) until Buffy brings in Faith for assistance. TFE’s plan is to knock off Faith once it’s down to her, Buffy, and the last remaining SIT (who’s the “mole slayer” really in league with TFE). Of course, none of my predictions ever come true. So you’re just about guaranteed that this is not what’s going to happen! ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/95 "2003-01-11T06:10:01Z")
A question: why arn’t the SIT’s better prepared or trained? Never seen a vampire? Never seen magic? Come on. Was the Council just sitting on their asses? “Oh, we’ve got the Super-Slayer, no need to train anyone for if she should die. Not like that’s never happened before.” If Buffy died, the Hellmouth would eventually be opened, and then it’s goodnight Irene. So why not have the next one be ready? Given advances in training, she should be better than Buffy, right? Instead we get whiny kids. ---
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/96 "2003-01-11T06:22:22Z")
Maybe Kendra’s blink-and-you-missed-it calling taught The Council that training from the cradle was less effective than letting them walk in the real world, like Buffy does. Or maybe the 3 SIT’s we saw slaughtered at the beginning of the season were the next 3 in line and The Council was counting on them. Perhaps TFE has been working backwards in order, from the most likely to be called next, to the least. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/97 "2003-01-11T10:31:35Z")
And the Buffster herself didn’t have any training or knowledge when she was called. I don’t see any inconcistence in this. The council kept track. When the attacks started, they rounded up all potential slayers, trying to keep them safe. What if, a week prior to her calling, ditzy valley-girl Buffy Anne Summers, had been attacked by a bringer, not having slayer powers? How long would she have lived? So take a bunch of 15-17 year old girls, take them away from home, telling them that there are supernatural forces trying to kill them - it’s not strange that they’re whining. BTW, I do hope they make Kennedy out to be more than 18. The uproar about Connor/Cordy and age, makes me fear the reactions, in case there are love scenes with Willow and a girl under 18. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/98 "2003-01-11T12:12:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Hell \* > \*\*A question: why arn’t the SIT’s better prepared or trained? Never seen a vampire? Never seen magic? Come on. Was the Council just sitting on their asses? “Oh, we’ve got the Super-Slayer, no need to train anyone for if she should die. Not like that’s never happened before.” If Buffy died, the Hellmouth would eventually be opened, and then it’s goodnight Irene. So why not have the next one be ready? Given advances in training, she should be better than Buffy, right? Instead we get whiny kids. \*\* Well, not being Slayers they don’t have the powers. It would be very dangerous to let them near supernatural forces. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Death](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecccb3/32.png) [@Evil\_Death](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Death)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/99 "2003-01-11T12:14:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Gaspode \* > \*\*BTW, I do hope they make Kennedy out to be more than 18. The uproar about Connor/Cordy and age, makes me fear the reactions, in case there are love scenes with Willow and a girl under 18. \*\* Not that there were any problems with Angel and a girl under 18. Someone out there has a fear of strong women, that’s for sure. (Of course, Connor is a special case - legally he’s not 1 year old yet. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037/100 "2003-01-11T12:39:55Z")
Well, techncally, Angel is dead, so it would be kinda hard to prosecute him. And wasn’t Buffy very close to 18… However, for wollow, at 21-22, to engage in [howard stern] lesbian sex [/howard stern] with a 15 y.o. … Me thinks the moral uproar would be intense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-01-07-03-showtime-spoilers/147037.md?page=6)