# Buffy 11/12/02 - Conversations with dead people **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 11, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329 "2002-11-11T23:06:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/121 "2002-11-14T16:03:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thea Logica \* > Spike is arguably the strongest character on the show, even stronger than Buffy Herself, though it doesn’t show as much because of the minimal screen time he’s been getting last season and this one. Spike got so much screen time last year, the show should have been called “Buff and Spike.” If you may recall, last year had the whole affair between Buffy and Spike, the attempted rape, Spike regaining his soul, etc.? [understatement]I recall seeing Mr. Marster’s mug on my TV on a few times last year[/understatement] Sua ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/122 "2002-11-14T16:04:37Z")
I’ve just realized something (watching “Restless” is a good way to get Buffy-related revelations). In “Help”, remember when Cassie told Spike, “She’ll tell you. Someday, she’ll tell you.” It’s not that she loves him, or that she likes tacos, or that his hair is on fire. It’s that he can rest. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/123 "2002-11-14T16:25:58Z")
Oh, and **SuaSponte** , Spike didn’t really get that much screen time. There were a few episodes that you saw him in a lot, as well as a couple you saw a lot of him in (Like, as much as can be legally shown on network television _ **drool** _) but for most of the season, he got a short scene at the beginning or near the end of the episode, maybe one of each if the Spike Girls were lucky. 'Course, now that I think about it, there were I think four or five episodes I never saw (Missed “Life Serial”, “Tabula Rasa,” “Doublemeat Palace”, “Smashed”, “As You Were” were not shown during summer reruns, especially not “Doublemeat Palace”, which the fast-food sponsors objected to), so I might have missed some Spikeage there. But, actually, Spike was almost nonexistant in S-6 prior to “Once More, With Feeling”, then, as the season wore on, we gradually saw more of him (especially in “Wrecked” and “Gone”, legally showable on network TV… “Oh, who’s got blushing eyes, now?”) and, with the soul thing going on, maybe the current season will follow the same pattern. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/124 "2002-11-14T16:43:30Z")
> [@](#): > > No, the point of the soul is that you can choose to be good or evil, not that you’re automatically good. That’s the reason they have the okay-to-kill-demons-and-vampires rule; because they have no soul they have no capacity for good. That’s also pretty much what the “entire fucking series” of “Angel” is about. So, we don’t know what Spike has chosen up to episode 6. He’s just been crazy in the basement. We do know that he chose to help Buffy in ep 1, ep 2, somewhat in ep 3, and ep4, plus he figured out the letterman’s jack in ep 6. Therefore, we have more evidence that he is _choosing_ to be good rather than just default. You can’t say “Oh, Spike is evil even with a soul” because you have no evidence of that. I’m surprised that so many people saw all the crazy stuff going on and are still assuming Spike is guilty. **elf6c** , if you want to know about Spike, here it is. Spike is not evil. I have firm spoiler evidence. He’s being manipulated/possesed by the first. Buffy knows this by the end of next week, that’s why he is not dusty. So all of you jumping up and down and pointing in excitement over EVIL!Spike are going to have to calm down for the next few weeks. As of ep 10, he’s not guilty. Also, FTR, Spiek had more screen time in S5 than he did in S6. I know this because some of us are insane and make special “Spike tapes” or “Spike CDs” (if we are DLing the eps) and S5 is about 30 mins longer, on average. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/125 "2002-11-14T17:29:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thea Logica \* > \*\*I’ve just realized something (watching “Restless” is a good way to get Buffy-related revelations). > > In “Help”, remember when Cassie told Spike, “She’ll tell you. Someday, she’ll tell you.” > > It’s not that she loves him, or that she likes tacos, or that his hair is on fire. > > It’s that he can rest. \*\* My god. ::lightbulb:: I think you’re absolutely right. You have such good insights. I always am so muddled and confused to the Buffy foreshadowing. Of course I think this means Spike is going to be Resting In Peace ☹ at the end of the season… And I just realized that in the midst of all my Spike-related bitching I never mentioned how much I adored psychologist-vamp. Especially the bit with the “well, not _my_ god, since I defy him and all his works…” ---
**Author:** ![pink\_kitten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@pink\_kitten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pink_kitten)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/126 "2002-11-14T17:39:05Z")
**Thea Logica** Too bad you missed those eps, they were great and essential. If you get cable channel FX, they will be having a skewers choice marathon on thanksgiving day from 12 noon on for 14 hours. I know they will show “Tabula Rasa” and “Smashed”, not to mention “Once More with Feeling”. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/127 "2002-11-14T18:25:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by arisu \* > \*\* > > My god. > > ::lightbulb:: I think you’re absolutely right. You have such good insights. I always am so muddled and confused to the Buffy foreshadowing. > > Of course I think this means Spike is going to be Resting In Peace ☹ at the end of the season… > > And I just realized that in the midst of all my Spike-related bitching I never mentioned how much I adored psychologist-vamp. Especially the bit with the “well, not _my_ god, since I defy him and all his works…” \*\* Um, well, actually, I was thinking more of a redemption/forgivenessy/you can stop torturing yourself over all the bad things you’ve done kind of rest. I really don’t think Spike will be dusty at the end of the season. I do periodically check the spoiler sites, and I think something as major as Spike being killed this season would have leaked out by now. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/128 "2002-11-14T18:27:12Z")
**Thea Logica** If you want quality time with Spike, then you _must_ see Tabula Rasa. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/129 "2002-11-14T18:47:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m surprised that so many people saw all the crazy stuff going on and are still assuming Spike is guilty. > elf6c, if you want to know about Spike, here it is. I think it is too soon to assume either. The episode can be taken either way. But to say he is an innocent puppet with not control, or is happily evil again, is mere speculation at this point. **pepperlandgirl** thanks for the reply, that was very thoughtful of you. I am not sure if its a spoiler or not, so I have not peaked yet- as I am attempting to be good spoiler wise. So should I look or hold off? As far as him being evil-- that is my _hope_. It would be more interesting that way. But truthfully, good or evil, as long as the “crazy Spike in the basement” plotline is gone I do not mind. I thought the for S6, the Spike quality and importance ratio was up from S4 and S5, even if the total time might have been less. Well, this week’s episode must have struck a nerve among the fans-- look how long this thread has gone on. Come on Tuesday. . . . 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/130 "2002-11-14T19:45:04Z")
**pepper** , any chance of working out some kind of trade for those Spike Tapes? 😃 Thea, I hereby dub thee Baroness of Buffy Breakdown. Wear this title with pride. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/131 "2002-11-14T20:12:46Z")
Maybe, if you have something I want. 😉 Anyway, as of right now, I’m going to have to drop out of the Spike (good or evil) debate because I have more knowledge because I am a spoiler whore—it’s kinda silly to argue with people who don’t have all the informatin you have. In the next few weeks, it’ll be easier to resume. Though, there has been plenty of foreshadowing for what’s happening and what’s going to happen… in all the episodes. elf6c, avoid my spoiler box if you want to be good, because it’s pretty solid spoilers from very reliable sources. There is no speculation at all in my spoiler box. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/132 "2002-11-14T22:52:12Z")
If you check out the info on the upcoming episode, called sleeper, which is in[TV Guide](http://www.tvguide.com/showguide/showPage.asp?iProgramID=14477), this supports Pepper’s spoiler’s to an extent. It certainly points the storyline in that direction. I have faith in Pepper. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/133 "2002-11-15T00:07:12Z")
Yeah, I’m with all the others on this one, \*\*pepperlandgirl \*\*…absoutely _nothing_ in the Buffy canon says that anyone who has a soul is “good”. In fact, they’ve gone out of their way many-a-time to say that souled people can be just as evil as vamps & demons. But, yeah–I agree that we shouldn’t assume that Spike is still evil. We’ll have to let this one play out. And, to resurrect an old debate: To those of you who were convinced that on last season’s finale Spike went to get his chip removed, and was _tricked_ into restoring his soul…do y’all still believe that? I feel that those of us who felt that Spike’s original & only intention was to get his soul back have been vindicated. All that talk about “giving Buffy what she deserves”, etc were red-herrings by the show’s writers to preserve the episode’s final surprise. But, I’d say that by now, everyone should be convinced that Spike wanted his soul back all along. If this weren’t true, dontcha think that by now he would’ve said something like, “All I wanted was this chip removed! And now I’m all soul-y!”? Anyways…I understand all the reasoning by the people who think Spike will get dusted this season…but I still don’t agree. I think that, yeah–Spike may sacrifice himself in a final act of redemption…but somehow it won’t “take”, and Spike will live on. He has to. Even if Buffy folds at the end of the season (and it looks like it will), there’s _Angel_, which is begging for a Spike/Angel reunion. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/134 "2002-11-15T01:59:34Z")
yeah, absolutely nothing if by absolutely nothing you mean “Angel doesn’t have to be held accountable for Angelus murdering Jenny Calender and arranging her tastefully in GIles’ bed, torturing Giles, putting Willow in the hospitable and trying to end the world.” **J Thunder’s** post implied that we can’t ask the question “has Spike gone evil” because last season he was evil. But last season he was a different person, so we can’t hold him accountable for what he did, or look at past actions to predict how he’ll behave in the future. Because if we do then we have to do the same to Angel–and that will never, ever happen. And at this point, I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt, because we sitll don’t have conclusive evidence that Souled!Spike has become evil. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/135 "2002-11-15T04:08:21Z")
SPIKE hasn’t gone evil. SPIKE has always been evil. Has William - the one with the soul - gone evil, or is Spike the one in charge when he kills? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/136 "2002-11-15T05:07:41Z")
Is the problem simply that Spike didn’t get a cool name chage when he got the soul? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/137 "2002-11-15T05:49:42Z")
My point is that SPIKE didn’t get the soul. SPIKE is the demon. He took the name when he swapped soul for demon-essence. William’s soul was restored. Spike, the demon. is still around. They weren’t getting along for the first bit of the season. If Spike/William is truly lucid, that would mean that either the demon and soul integrated or one or the other is in control. If the soul and demon remained separate - and I don’t see any way they couldn’t, and he’s killing, either William has turned evil under the influence of Spike and TETD, or Spike is in control. I favour the latter interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/138 "2002-11-15T13:24:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\*Is the problem simply that Spike didn’t get a cool name chage when he got the soul? \*\* Maybe we can call souled Spike **Nail**? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/139 "2002-11-15T14:23:52Z")
I still think that trying to think of souls and demons at work in a vampire as seperate _people_ is way off. Angel’s post-soul-loss behavior, his comments on Doppelganger Willow, the fact that Vampires have all the right memories etc… IMO, being a Vampire only makes you different because it removes a conscience and adds a lust for blood. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329/140 "2002-11-15T14:42:16Z")
Thank you **pepperlandgirl** – I am going to be a good boy (for once 🙂 ) and avoid spoilers this season. It really does juice up the surprises a bit. 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-12-02-conversations-with-dead-people/136329.md?page=8)