# Buffy 11/19/02 - Sleeper (spoilers in box) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 18, 2002, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352 "2002-11-18T18:53:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/101 "2002-11-21T19:17:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > \*\ ***Thea Logica** how about some Clem fanfic! Or Clem-Dawn stories where they save the day while the others ignore them (ala The Zeppo). > > Or one where Anya writes a best selling business book. Or where Xander gets his own Bob Vila type show-- “This Old Crypt”. > > I have to admit that you did start the Save our Clem movement- I was just happy to be part of such a worthy cause. > > 🙂 \*\* Well, the thing is, I’m sort of wrapped up in this post-Buffy fanfic thing that I’m writing that seems to have taken over my whole existence. I thought it was going to be short, but It’s already longer than I planned it to be, plus I keep editing and rewriting. I have a feeling that I’m going to end up with a novel by the time I get done. Grrr, arrrgh I won’t bore anyone with plot details, if you want to know about it, e-mail me. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/102 "2002-11-21T20:07:43Z")
And if our missing floppy demon were to open a betting parlor for all your favorite kitty poker games, it would be… Clem’s Casino ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/103 "2002-11-21T20:11:34Z")
And that’s just one vowel off from the much-loved \*[clams\* casino](http://www.fl-ag.com/flckbk/clamcasino.htm). Coincidence? I think not! But does Clem like clams casino? I think that’s the question we really need to be asking ourselves. This has gotten entirely too silly. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/104 "2002-11-21T20:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, the only person with clean hands would be Xander. I guess that’s why he complains about the Spike killings-- he has not gotten his own human killing spree yet. Damn writers. . . . Uh, Xander has innocent blood on his hands. He summoned **Sweet** last year. (Any doubt that he didn’t was cleared up in _Selfless_.) We know of at least one body “I’ve only seen the one. I inspected the body while the police was taking police arias.” Then Xander says, "Okay, but we’re sure that the things are related: the singing and dancing, and burning and dying. " I don’t know what the final body count on that was though. Giles implies that there was definitely more than one. I guess you can summon a demon that burns people alive and nearly kills your best friend after nearly kidnapping your best friend’s sister , but it’s ok because you wanted a happy ending, and everybody can obviously forget about it. ---
**Author:** ![somethingblue2u](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b19c9b/32.png) [@somethingblue2u](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somethingblue2u)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/105 "2002-11-21T20:28:03Z")
Here are the lyrics to Spike’s song. Early one morning, just as the sun was rising I heard a maiden singing in the valley below: “Oh don’t deceive me, Oh never leave me, How could you use a poor maiden so?” Remember the vows that you made to me truly, Remember how tenderly you nestled close to me? Gay is the garland, fresh are the roses Culled from the garden to bind over thee. Here now I wander alone as I wonder: Why did you leave me to sigh and to complain? I ask the roses, why should you leave me, Why must I here in sorrow remain? Through yonder grove, by the spring that is running There you and I have so merrily played. Kissing and courting, and gently sporting Oh, my innocent heart you’ve betrayed! I think I am getting it. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/106 "2002-11-21T20:38:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elf6c \* > \*\* > A thought on killing and instant redemption- Willow, Anya and Spike have done it (actually Anya killed no one as the curse was undone at your request- but I digress. . .) if your name is in the main opening credits (i.e. no “guest” type billing) kill away. Otherwise your in big trouble- see i.e. Faith. Faith was under the influence of the Mayor, bad childhood, dead Watcher ect. . so she had an excuse too. But without her name in the credits are required, killing was wrong. Actually, Buffy killed someone too (with Faith-- right?). So did Giles (Glory’s host). Actually, the only person with clean hands would be Xander. I guess that’s why he complains about the Spike killings-- he has not gotten his own human killing spree yet. Damn writers. . . . > 😉 \*\* If you’re going after Giles for killing Glory’s host, then you’ll have to go afer Buffy for killing vampires. You know, dangerous creatures that feed off of people? And I can forgive Willow. IIRC, her body count was A) Warren. Justifiable homicide. B) Rack. A thaumological pusher. No tears here. So she tried to kill Buffy, Anya, Dawn, and everyone else on Earth? Hell, Buffy did, too. I’d say that being insane with grief is as justifible as wanting to be insane with your parents again. Actually, Buffy took out at least 10 of the crazy key-severing knights, with no pangs of conscience. She really needs to discriminate between people and innocents. And I think that TETD is really Clem. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/107 "2002-11-21T20:53:36Z")
> [@](#): > > If you’re going after Giles for killing Glory’s host, then you’ll have to go afer Buffy for killing vampires. You know, dangerous creatures that feed off of people? Uh…what? Ben wasn’t a dangerous creature that fed off of people. And I don’t think you understand the nature of Glory and Ben. Ben wasn’t possessed by Glory. They were two seperate beings sharing a body. Remember this exhange from Blood Ties: DAWN: You’re-you’re Ben… GLORY: (fastening the blouse behind her) Uh, it’s an eensy more complicated than that. Family always is, isn’t it? GLORY: Now. What I’m trying to noodle, is what in the world was the Slayer’s little sis doing here with gentle Ben? DAWN: Y-you don’t remember? GLORY: Remember what? (brushes hair off Dawn’s shoulders) You were talking to him, not me. (gasps, grabs Dawn’s chin) Oh, he wasn’t being naughty, was he? Ben was innocent of Glory’s crimes. Do I fault Giles for killing him? No. But the fact of the matter is, he did kill someone who was essentially innocent (if not a very nice person). That’s completely different from Buffy slaying vampires. > [@](#): > > And I can forgive Willow. IIRC, her body count was > A) Warren. Justifiable homicide. > B) Rack. A thaumological pusher. No tears here. You can’t just go around killing people you don’t like, even if they deserve it. That’s kinda the whole point of Buffy trying to stop Willow, “You can’t come back from that.” That’s why on AtS they were trying to stop Fred from killing the Professor. The whole “vengeance is bad” has been a major part of the theme since S2. ("It’s not about justice…it’s about vegeance.) ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/108 "2002-11-21T21:20:00Z")
We are just talking humans- thats the big no no in the Buffy-verse. Ben did cooperate with Glory in the end though- so his hands were not clean. Still he was human, and Giles did kill him. Giles also had his Ripper phases as well. Xander did not intend for anyone to be killed by summoning the dancin’ demon. I always thought he claimed he did it to protect Dawn who actually did it. When did Xander learn demon summoning spells? Anyway, no intentional human killing that I could see. But he did get to indirectly kill some humans, so that has to count for something. Warren was tried to a tree and helpless- sorry that’s not justifiable homicide in any fashion. It was murder in the first degree, cold blooded, premeditiated murder. The other 2 dunces would have joined old Warren as well, if the Scoobies did not interfere. But she was looking to kill Dawn- so her murderous rage did have a small upside. Buffy whomped those knights good-- after she was attacked and she did not kill them either- although she had the chance (just watched it again the other night-- go FX!) Looks like the only person with truly clean hands-- Clem! Just another reason why they need to bring him back, he is the moral compass of the show. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/109 "2002-11-21T21:22:52Z")
> [@](#): > > **And I think that TETD is really Clem.** :eek: > [@](#): > > or who thnk us Spike Girls are simply a bunch of airheads who are ruled by estrogen-saturated brain cells triggered by a set of washboard abs, Don’t forget about us Fan Boys who love the Spiles slash (thanks **pepper** ) ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/110 "2002-11-21T23:44:49Z")
The general says flat-out, “And ten of my knights are dead.” Heck, I remember Buffy throwing and embedding an axe in one during the fight/escape sequence. I say that Willow would be given a pass if she just killed Warren. Remember, he was evil. The torturing was a bad idea, but I say that we couldn’t fault her if she had just killed him. Come on. If someone had killed Angel back in season two or three, do you really think that Buffy would be expected not to Slay, with a capital ‘S’? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/111 "2002-11-22T00:43:09Z")
One of the things that seems to have slipped from memory is that Dr. Walsh said the chip was to _condition_ Spike away from hurting humans. To me, the use of the words _condition_ and _modification_ implies the chip was (perhaps) not designed to be permanent. Perhaps the makers of the chip were relying on the _expectation_ of a headache to remove the need to be violent. The chip could be dying, and because of that Spike only feels the pain when he hits a human with malice aforethought. As when he hit Xander and the boys who were trying to sacrifice Cassie. In “The I in Team” (copied from [http://studiesinwords.de/buffy.html](http://studiesinwords.de/buffy.html)) Walsh: (to Buffy) Head of our science team. He’s a leader in the field of xenomorphic behavior modification. Buffy: Behavior modification? Walsh: We’ve made significant advances in reconditioning the sub-terrestrials. Bringing them to a point where they no longer pose a threat. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/112 "2002-11-22T02:17:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Xander did not intend for anyone to be killed by summoning the dancin’ demon. I always thought he claimed he did it to protect Dawn who actually did it. When did Xander learn demon summoning spells? Anyway, no intentional human killing that I could see. But he did get to indirectly kill some humans, so that has to count for something. Nope, Xander was the one who did it. Remember in Anya’s flashback to OMWF, Xander was muttering that he just wanted a happy ending? You know, the very excuse he used when he was “protecting” Dawn. I don’t know how or why he learned to summon demons, but he did. Sure, I’ll let Xander off the hook—if I was willing to believe it was the biggest idiot in the history of the world. You don’t summon demons. Summoning demons–even the singing kind–is bad. And so what if he didn’t mean for people to die? If someone dies as a result of your actions, it’s still a crime, whether it was an accident or not. > [@](#): > > Come on. If someone had killed Angel back in season two or three, do you really think that Buffy would be expected not to Slay, with a capital ‘S’? Someone almost did, and she almost did. But even though Faith shot Angel, I don’t believe Buffy had the right to stab her in the gut with the intention of letting Angel feed from her. And it wasn’t “right” when she did it either? Understandable (Well, I say no. But that’s because I hate Angel…) Ok, it was understandable. Right? No. All of them are guilty of murdering a human, except Dawn, as far as I can tell. Pointing fingers now and saying one character deserves to _pay_ for his/her crime just doesn’t work within the established rules of the Buffyverse. If everybody paid for taking a life, the only person we’d have left would be Dawn. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/113 "2002-11-22T02:30:27Z")
**somethingblue2u** wrote: > [@](#): > > Any ideas why that particular song Spike hummed, sang and the old guy played on the harmonica helped trigger Spike’s evil deeds? And does it seem that the evil is bringing victims to Spike to tempt him sometimes. For example, the girl that had the cigarettes, she might have been sent to tempt him. What do you all think? The [ballad](http://www.contemplator.com/folk/earlyone.html) eerily echoes what it is Soul Brother Spike is feeling guilty about, not just with regards to Buffy, but his life as a vampire in general. I surmised that Spike was doing as he was told because The Big Bad was offering him solace from that guilt by way of forgetfulness. Midi warning on that link, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/114 "2002-11-22T03:05:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Someone almost did, and she almost did. But even though Faith shot Angel, I don’t believe Buffy had the right to stab her in the gut with the intention of letting Angel feed from her. And it wasn’t “right” when she did it either? Understandable (Well, I say no. But that’s because I hate Angel…) Ok, it was understandable. Right? No. I’d say killing a rogue Slayer falls under the general Vampire Slayer job description of “protecting humans from supernatural menaces.” The only reason Buffy was reluctant to kill Faith sooner is because they had been friends, not because she’s human. Hell, the Mayor was human for most of the season, too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/115 "2002-11-22T04:37:38Z")
Regarding the Mayor I think once you pass ten or so birthdays without looking a day older you’ve handed in your human badge. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/116 "2002-11-22T04:43:25Z")
Also, the Mayor sold his soul before we met him…and wasn’t he part demon by the time we met him too? I don’t think the fact that Faith was a rogue slayer was part of Buffy’s motive at all. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/117 "2002-11-22T16:00:57Z")
It dawned on me last night that I had forgotten to check in with the Cafe crowd. First off-- that tune! Since I was born in the 70s in Canada, I know that tune very well- BECAUSE IT’S THE THEME FOR A KIDDIES SHOW. The Friendly Giant, on CBC. Do you know how twisted and warped it is to hear a tune that brings you back to 5 years old-- and see a guy digging a grave? I think Joss is personally mindf\*\*ing me… Second. Aimee Mann’s performance-- great moment up on the balcony (and why does everyone ignore a massive battle on the balcony anyway?). And I did love her line. Third-- now that we know they were Watchers and Slayers-in-training being killed-- why are all the stab marks vertical? To me, I’d think you’d hit a couple of ribs that way… Fourth-- Giles. I see three possibilities. Most likely is a) he punts the pail-- and the characters don’t find out for a while. If we see Giles without resolving that fight, he died. But we know the dead come back… b) I heard that classic \ sound effect as cloaked man swung the axe. Traditionally that sound is heard as people draw or swing _swords_, and not axes. That leads me to believe that either Robson is ready to parry-- or Giles’ new slayer trainee is right behind guy with cloak and is stabbing him. In which case Giles is alive. c) Giles went in their astrally, or with a magical shield, or something. In which case we see a fight scene. ---
**Author:** ![Eats\_Crayons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Eats\_Crayons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eats_Crayons)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/118 "2002-11-22T16:48:11Z")
Wanna know something werid? I’ve always wanted it to turn out that sweet Clem actually has a “game face” of his own (like, what if his game face actually FIT all that skin.) So whenever he babysat Dawn, I was always thinking that some baddies would bust down the door and Clem would turn into the _scariest creature yet seen on Buffy._ Still be sweet Clemmy, but really freaky, wet-your-pants-from-fear-scary lookin’. But despite this appearance still have the mild manners and Clem voice. “Hey, wanna order some buffalo wings?” ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/119 "2002-11-22T18:36:42Z")
**Charmian** mine was that he was missing because he had just started a day care center. Parent: “Sure he’s a demon, but do you know how hard it is to get good day care in this town.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352/120 "2002-11-22T20:06:02Z")
Hey who better to protect your kids in Sunnydale than a friendly demon? The sentient demons seem to have rules against killing eachother even if they don’t like one another (the guy’s who warned Spike for instance didn’t kill him because they respected the rules). So Clem would only have to worry about the rampaging beasts and then he could do the game face thing and make it flee for its life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-11-19-02-sleeper-spoilers-in-box/137352.md?page=7)