# Buffy, Angel Mythology Grab Bag (Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 16, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720 "2001-10-16T14:05:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/101 "2001-11-06T01:35:07Z")
Snider was just a mortal toady of the Mayor I believe. The Mayor had him firmly under his control through mundane means and could be sure that he would cover up what needed to be covered up. As for the woman running the Angel runaway shelter I thought that she was the woman in the vampires are our friend club. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/102 "2001-11-06T01:53:20Z")
> [@](#): > > As for the woman running the Angel runaway shelter I thought that she was the woman in the vampires are our friend club. It’s the same woman. ---
**Author:** ![cmburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@cmburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmburns)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/103 "2001-11-06T02:28:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*Last night it showed “Band Candy.” During one of the scenes where Willow was researching, the phrase “WICCA-4” was superimposed on the screen. What’s up with that? Anyone else ever seen anything like that? \*\* Cool, although it probably means your TV is possessed and is just waiting for you to fall asleep so it can strangle you to death with a coaxial cable. Maybe you should have the remote control next to you from now on, with your finger on the “Exorcise” button at all times. I sure don’t remember that from the original broadcast, but I’ll definitely keep an eye out for it now. ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/104 "2001-11-06T04:04:15Z")
Re: the cross thing - I’m fairly certain I remember a first-season episode that implied that vampires have a deep, instinctive fear of crosses. So there’s a phobia there, plus it burns if you touch them, but both of those things can be overcome with sufficient willpower. Also, I can’t remember where I heard this, but I _think_ I remember an interview or something in which Joss specifically said it was only crosses, and not other religious symbols, that affected vampires in this way; and that it didn’t necessarily have anything to do with the truth of Christianity, just with old bad blood (pardon the pun) between vampires and Christianity. Which, if you think about what blood and sacrifice and immortality mean in vampire myths and in the Christian story, actually does make some sense. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7feea3/32.png) [@PatrickM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickM)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/105 "2001-11-06T14:46:14Z")
re: use of crosses: (spoiler) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . There’s a very funny cross scene in season 3 epidsode “Dopplegangland” when everybody thinks Willow’s been turned into a vamp. When Xander hold a cross out to Willow and it physically hurt her at all Xander shakes the cross a couple of times and then points it at her again, like its a TV remote with a running down battery. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/106 "2001-11-06T15:35:40Z")
But then we get last night’s “Angel” which shows Darla not once but twice batting away crosses like they weren’t even there. The modern-day instance could be explained by this “supercharged” thing she has going on with the pregnancy, but the other time she doesn’t have that excuse. It’s hard to tell from the camera angles whether she’s actually touching the crosses either time, but they didn’t seem to have much of a repellent effect. Or else she was just able to overcome it with little or no effort. ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/107 "2001-11-06T15:48:07Z")
Crosses are not leathal, they are just a deterrant whose strength depends on the strength of the vamp. It is perfectly possible to knock away a cross with only minor injury, and vampires can hold crosses if their hands are covered. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/108 "2001-11-06T16:21:36Z")
At least in Buffyverse, the “intensity of belief” of the wielder of a cross is irrelevant - it is the cross itself that is key (and it burns, not repels). In at least two _Angel_ episodes, crosses cause (or are presumed to cause) injury even when no one was holding it. The two episodes were the one in which Angel goes through the gauntlet to save Darla’s life - he has to run barefoot across the room with crosses on the floor and they burn his feet. The second was the episode where Wesley impersonates Angel - he casually rested his hand on a helmet with a cross on top, then had to pretend that it burned him. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2001, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/109 "2001-11-06T16:28:21Z")
And a couple of episodes ago on _Buffy_ we saw Spike rummaging through a box of weapons. He accidentally grabbed a cross, exclaimed in pain and we heard a “sizzle” sound effect. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/110 "2001-11-07T00:00:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*What kills me about this is that all of them used crosses at one time or another exactly as suggested above. Xander, Willow and Cordelia held off Angel when Buffy was sick. Jenny backed him off Willow right after he turned. It’s just stupid that they’d think to carry crosses sometimes and not others. Either really sloppy writing or a way too convenient plot oversight. \*\* Unfortunately, it does seem to be a plot hole, the same as “How come Xander and Willow haven’t signed up for martial arts classes?” For many of the plots to work, you can’t repel/kill the antagonists in the first minute or we’d be reduced to watching Anya talk about money all the time. The crosses that have held back vampires have all been larger than a hand span and made of wood. The small cross Buffy wears seems to have no effect. Interestingly, they all seem to be empty crosses, rather than the ones with a representation of the crucified Christ. Somehow, it seems like if they were making a statement about Christianity being a superior demon-repelling religion, they’d use other kind of crosses. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/111 "2001-11-07T00:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*One of my local affiliates is running Buffy on weekends but wickedly out of order. Last night it showed “Band Candy.” During one of the scenes where Willow was researching, the phrase “WICCA-4” was superimposed on the screen. What’s up with that? Anyone else ever seen anything like that? \*\* Yeah, I saw the same thing. No idea what it was for. For anyone else who saw ‘Band Candy’: Notice how much Giles-as-a-teenager resembles Spike? Not in appearance, but just in attitude and character. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/112 "2001-11-07T01:50:58Z")
> [@](#): > > For anyone else who saw ‘Band Candy’: Notice how much Giles-as-a-teenager resembles Spike? Not in appearance, but just in attitude and character. And accent IMHO. Back to the crosses thing. We have on any number of occassions seen vampires recoil from crosses which are a distance from them. Yes, this could be a reflexive thing along the lines of feeling heat coming off a burner, but until recently it always read to me that the cross had some repellent effect. It’s also traditional dating back at least to 1931 that filmed representations of vampires cower from the cross (often with hissing but I digress). If all the cross truly does is burn, then its effectiveness as a weapon is greatly diminished. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/113 "2001-11-07T02:32:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > For anyone else who saw ‘Band Candy’: Notice how much Giles-as-a-teenager resembles Spike? Not in appearance, but just in attitude and character. > > And accent IMHO. > > \*\* I read somewhere that that’s Tony Head’s _real_ accent, not the Oxbridge he usually affects, and that James Marsters learned how to speak Brit from him. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/114 "2001-11-07T02:47:12Z")
I ran across a discussion on the effects of crosses on a Buffy Message Board and found an interesting take on it: > [@](#): > > \*\*“Crosses and holy water work against vampires; doesn’t that imply the truth of Catholicism?” Well, let’s try this on for size: What if vampires are allergic, in effect, to the shape of a cross? That’s why the faith of the bearer (Willow comes to mind) doesn’t change its effectiveness. Similarly, either by accident or intention, Catholic priests discovered a spell that makes water poisonous to vampires, and incorporated the ritual into their practices. So a lot of Christian and/or Catholic practices and symbols originated as anti-vampire techniques, and have been kept alive through tradition. (And I know that Spike seems to accept that the Crucifixion was an actual historical event, but that doesn’t say anything pro or con the Resurrection) \*\* Also while Joss Whedon is an avowed atheist, he does like to use Christian imagery. Here’s a quote from him from 1998: **"The fact is, the Christian mythos has a powerful fascination to me, and it bleeds into my storytelling. Redemption, hope, purpose, Santa, these all are important to me, whether I believe in an afterlife or some universal structure or not."** ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/115 "2001-11-07T02:49:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*I read somewhere that that’s Tony Head’s _real_ accent, not the Oxbridge he usually affects, and that James Marsters learned how to speak Brit from him. \*\* Can’t say anything about Marsters picking up his accent from Head, but Head does indeed speak with a different accent, usually - though it’s not quite as…rough as Spike’s, it’s definitely not his usual Giles accent. ---
**Author:** ![lolagranola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea5d25/32.png) [@lolagranola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lolagranola)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/116 "2001-11-07T14:50:41Z")
> [@](#): > > The small cross Buffy wears seems to have no effect. Well, it did burn Luke in the first episode, and burned Angel in the episode “Angel”. Also, she used to flip it to her back when her and Angel were making out. Unless that wasn’t what you were referring to. I wasn’t sure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2001, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/117 "2001-11-07T19:11:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lolagranola \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > The small cross Buffy wears seems to have no effect. > > Well, it did burn Luke in the first episode, and burned Angel in the episode “Angel”. Also, she used to flip it to her back when her and Angel were making out. > > Unless that wasn’t what you were referring to. I wasn’t sure. \*\* I was unclear. I’m sorry. I meant that it seems to have no effect on the random vamps she fights. The random vamps and Angel are seemingly only repelled by largish wooden crosses held at the user’s arm’s length in front of the vamp. The small metallic crosses Buffy wears don’t seem to repel or weaken the vamps she fights. Crosses (in general) are only used as plot devices in the Buffyverse. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/118 "2001-11-09T11:49:07Z")
One great thing about Joss’s writing is his foreshadowing throughout the series. Watching the early episodes in Season Two, Willow is beginning to learn magic, and already Giles is warning her that she’s dealing with forces she may not be able to control. You can tell he’s not happy with her dabbling…which makes his anger at her this season much more understandable. We all know by now that Buffy’s dreams are prophetic. But it’s interesting to check out her past dreams in light of recent developments: In Season Four’s episode This Year’s Girl she has a dream where Faith & her are making a bed. Buffy says she has to go. Faith says: “Little sis coming, I know” Buffy replies, “So much to do before she gets here”. And I remember after Season Three’s finale Graduation Part 2 everyone was trying to decipher Buffy’s dream. The line no-one could figure out was when Faith said “Little Miss Muffett, counting down from 7-3-0”. Now, it seems to me, that was a reference to Buffy’s death…which came exactly two years later (730 days?). That number was also referenced a year later in Buffy’s dream in Restless. The clock reads “7:30”, but Tara tells her that clock is wrong; as Buffy leaves Tara reminds her to “Be back before dawn!” So, is there any other foreshadowing that’s gone on in the Buffyverse? Or am I just reading into things too much? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/119 "2001-11-09T14:29:12Z")
Here’s a question: Spike has a bad reputation among demons because he fights and kills other demons (c.f. the “kitten poker” incident among others). So how come Angel doesn’t? Or does the demon world know he’s a special case? ---
**Author:** ![susan\_foster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@susan\_foster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan_foster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/120 "2001-11-09T15:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*Here’s a question: Spike has a bad reputation among demons because he fights and kills other demons (c.f. the “kitten poker” incident among others). So how come Angel doesn’t? Or does the demon world know he’s a special case? \*\* Oh Angel definitely has a bad rep. I can’t remember specifics, but I am sure that other vamps when fighting him have questioned how he could have turned his back on their kind. Susan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720.md?page=7)