# Buffy, Angel Mythology Grab Bag (Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 16, 2001, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720 "2001-10-16T14:05:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/121 "2001-11-09T17:49:13Z")
Frink’s talk about drea forshadowing brings back this debate for me. Does the cheese man meen anything or was he just there to be a very funny part of the first slayer dreams? One of my friends thought at the time it was a symbol of someone helpful who would appear in the next season. I thought it was just something silly. I think that it wouldn’t be that surprising to see it in Willow’s dream, and it spread with the first slayer to the others. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/122 "2001-11-09T20:01:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by frinkboy \* > \*\*One great thing about Joss’s writing is his foreshadowing throughout the series. > > Watching the early episodes in Season Two, Willow is beginning to learn magic, and already Giles is warning her that she’s dealing with forces she may not be able to control. You can tell he’s not happy with her dabbling…which makes his anger at her this season much more understandable. > > We all know by now that Buffy’s dreams are prophetic. But it’s interesting to check out her past dreams in light of recent developments: > > In Season Four’s episode This Year’s Girl she has a dream where Faith & her are making a bed. Buffy says she has to go. Faith says: “Little sis coming, I know” Buffy replies, “So much to do before she gets here”. > > And I remember after Season Three’s finale Graduation Part 2 everyone was trying to decipher Buffy’s dream. The line no-one could figure out was when Faith said “Little Miss Muffett, counting down from 7-3-0”. Now, it seems to me, that was a reference to Buffy’s death…which came exactly two years later (730 days?). That number was also referenced a year later in Buffy’s dream in Restless. The clock reads “7:30”, but Tara tells her that clock is wrong; as Buffy leaves Tara reminds her to “Be back before dawn!” > > So, is there any other foreshadowing that’s gone on in the Buffyverse? Or am I just reading into things too much? \*\* Duuuuude. I’m a _BtVS_ freak, but you need help, man. 😃 Sua ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/123 "2001-11-09T20:47:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Tim \* > \*\*Frink’s talk about drea forshadowing brings back this debate for me. Does the cheese man meen anything or was he just there to be a very funny part of the first slayer dreams? I’m pretty sure I’ve read where Joss said it was just intended to be randomly amusing. **frinkboy** , loved your analysis, by the way. I never got to see any of those episodes, but I’m sure you’re on to something. ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/124 "2001-11-09T20:53:19Z")
Submit bad, preview good. Submit bad, preview good… ---
**Author:** ![cmburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@cmburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmburns)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/125 "2001-11-09T21:26:40Z")
My apologies if this has been answered weeks ago, but I only just thought about this. After Buffy’s second death, the gang covered up her demise using the Buffybot so that Dawn wouldn’t be taken away. But what about her grave? Isn’t that a pretty big clue she was dead? It seemed to be in a public graveyard, it had her name on the gravestone, assumedly some graveyard workers were the ones who buried her, and a mortuary worker who put her in the coffin. Was this explained in the show somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/126 "2001-11-09T21:31:39Z")
It isn’t in a graveyard, it’s somewhere in the woods. Watch the episode where they bring her back and you’ll see there are no other graves around and when they scatter it’s just woods around. So they got a coffin/gravestone for her and did herself I’d assume. ---
**Author:** ![cmburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@cmburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmburns)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/127 "2001-11-09T22:03:18Z")
Thanks, \*\* The Tim \*\*, that sets my mind at ease. From what I remembered of the episode, I just assumed it was in a easily accessible public place, 'cause of all the demon bikers around. I should pay more attention to the details so I don’t have these puzzling thoughts come up weeks later. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/128 "2001-11-09T22:26:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by frinkboy \* > \*\*And I remember after Season Three’s finale Graduation Part 2 everyone was trying to decipher Buffy’s dream. The line no-one could figure out was when Faith said _"Little Miss Muffett,_ counting down from 7-3-0". \*\* Just found one more thing that points to Buffy’s Season Three dream being a reference to Dawn’s arrival. Who is “Little Miss Muffett”? In Dawn’s first full episode, Real Me, she passes by an insane guy in front of the Magic Box. He sees her, and mutters “I know you. Curds and Whey. I know what you are. You don’t belong here.” _Little Miss Muffet, sat on a tuffet eating her curds and whey_ You’re right. I need help. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/129 "2001-11-14T23:59:15Z")
We’ve been theorizing, here and in other threads on vampire physiology. I’ve got more questions. How come the seriously psychotic vampire (in Helpless) was taking drugs (something that made him calmer and less psychotic apparently)? What were they, did they say and I missed it? Also, how can a vampire (being dead) digest anything, and have it move in his body from the belly to the brain? I mean, Spike gets drunk, most of the vampires smoke (but maybe they’re just bored) but we have not seen a vampire with an addiction before now. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/130 "2001-11-15T00:52:51Z")
In the same vein as the post above by **The Devil’s Grandmother** , I have a few vampire questions as well. We all know that in the Buffyverse: [list] [li]In order to enter a private residence, a vampire must be invited;[/li][li]If a person is bit by a vampire, they do not become one. In order to be “turned” a person must first be fed on by a vampire, and then must themselves drink the vampire’s blood.[/li] I was wondering, how does this differ from \*\*Bram Stoker’s \*\*Dracula and the vampires in the world of **Anne Rice**? Do the same “rules” apply? Are there any other major difference between the vamps in Buffy, and the more “traditional” vampires? ---
**Author:** ![VeraGemini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9bcb4/32.png) [@VeraGemini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VeraGemini)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/131 "2001-11-15T02:20:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by frinkboy \* > \*\*In the same vein as the post above by **The Devil’s Grandmother** , I have a few vampire questions as well. > > We all know that in the Buffyverse: [ul] > [li]In order to enter a private residence, a vampire must be invited;[/li][li]If a person is bit by a vampire, they do not become one. In order to be “turned” a person must first be fed on by a vampire, and then must themselves drink the vampire’s blood.[/li] > I was wondering, how does this differ from \*\*Bram Stoker’s \*\*Dracula and the vampires in the world of **Anne Rice**? Do the same “rules” apply? Are there any other major difference between the vamps in Buffy, and the more “traditional” vampires? \*\* The details vary widely from mythos to mythos. Bram Stoker: [list] [li]Blood exchange is required to make a new vampire[/li][li]Invitaion required… I think[/li][li]Vampires can walk about in daylight, although they are weakened[/li][li]Coffins and native earth a must[/li][li]Holy items and garlic repel[/li][li]Staking and beheading preferred method of disposal[/li][/ul] Anne Rice: [ul] [li]Blood exchange required[/li][li]No invite needed[/li][li]Sunlight bad[/li][li]Coffins preferred but not strictly required, no native earth[/li][li]Holy items only have an effect if the vampire believes they will, garlic has no effect[/li][li]Wooden stakes have no particular significance, any massive injury may be enough to cause death, sunlight or fire are the only sure-fire methods. (Except for Lestat :D)[/li][li]Vampires cannot eat or drink any human food, or have sex[/li][/ul] Folk mythology varies even more. Cecil did a [column](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_039.html) on the subject once. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/132 "2001-11-15T04:11:29Z")
I’ve been watching the FX reruns (most excellent!) and just saw the episode in which Faith goes Really Bad. Here’s my question: when she was strangling Xander in her motel room, Angel appeared and smacked her on the head with a baseball bat. I don’t recall Angel ever being in her room before, or is a motel room exempt from the invitation rule for some reason? It certainly was her living space, it seems to me that he should need an invite. Am I just forgetting the pertinent episode? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/133 "2001-11-15T08:13:51Z")
**Kyla** : Motels and hotels in the Buffyverse are a kind of gray area when it comes to the whole “invitation” episode. It’s never been made 100% clear if a vampire can enter a hotel room uninvited. In this case, though, there are any number of times Faith could have made the invite off-camera. Probably in the form of a proposition. **VeraGemini** : Not 100% on this, but I don’t think a blood exchange was required in Stoker. Rather, it took a gradual draining over the course of several days. ---
**Author:** ![VeraGemini](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9bcb4/32.png) [@VeraGemini](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VeraGemini)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/134 "2001-11-15T17:47:16Z")
**Miller** : It’s been a while since I read Stoker. I seem to remember a blood exchange between Dracula and Mina, but I’ll grant that my memory could be tainted by the various movies. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/135 "2001-11-16T00:50:19Z")
Also in Stoker: Vampires unable to cross water except at high tide (or low tide, I forget). It’s been a long time since I read “Dracula” but I’m pretty sure there’s a diary entry (probably Seward’s) that describes Dracula pressing Mina’s face to a wound on his body and forcing her to drink. As to why the vampire would be taking anti-psychotics, we have seen that poisons and injuries affect various vampires, and they can be knocked unconscious, so other physical attacks besides stakes and crosses and whatnot affect them. And Drucilla’s certainly nutty as a Christmas cake so turning isn’t necessarily a cure for mental illness. So it’s possible that mental illnesses with or without physiological components could carry over into the vampire. Although that’s rather contradicted by Tumor Boy in the second (I think) season and also by Darla’s clap being arrested for four centuries by her conversion. Or maybe the guy was psychotic before he turned and his symptoms and response to medication are pstchosomatic. ---
**Author:** ![MrAtoz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@MrAtoz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrAtoz)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/136 "2001-11-16T03:39:53Z")
It is far from clear, in Stoker’s myth-making, whether blood-exchange is required to make a vampire. Yes, Dracula does force Mina to drink his blood, and everybody agrees that this “taints” her in some significant way. But of course, Mina never became a vampire. On the other hand, Lucy did, and there is no mention of Lucy ever taking any of Dracula’s blood. Van Helsing explains all of the vampire’s characteristics, in painful and badly-accented detail. Off-hand, I don’t recall any reference to exchanges of blood. It seemed much more like the standard Get Killed By A Vampire, Become A Vampire idea. My pet theory has always been that the blood-drinking scene between Mina and Dracula was a way for him to strengthen his hypnotic control over her. I must read Dracula again sometime. ---
**Author:** ![lolagranola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ea5d25/32.png) [@lolagranola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lolagranola)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/137 "2001-11-16T03:47:48Z")
Back to **frinkboy** ’s comments, I would like to watch Restless again. It was supposed to contain clues about where the series was going. Well, all except for the cheese guy. Someone at The Bronze mentioned that parts of Tabula Rasa seemed to come from Restless. I haven’t seen Tabula Rasa yet, but I will compare afterwards. ---
**Author:** ![bristlesage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@bristlesage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bristlesage)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/138 "2001-11-16T04:46:17Z")
Just to bring this up one more time (sorry!): So now it’s my turn to show my over-involvement with this show. Perhaps the effectiveness of the cross has less to do with the wielder’s religion and more to do with the vamp’s pre-vamp religion. For example, Angel is from Ireland, a pretty Catholic nation. So maybe the reverence for the cross he was brought up with turned into fear. Moreover, maybe the effectiveness wears off over time. Older vamps, like Darla (She has a couple hundred years on Angel; Buffy says something in an early ep about being around since Columbus leaving little lines around her eyes.) and the Master may have become more accustomed to the fear. It seems like most of the vamps we’ve met have been from Europe somewhere and hence were probably Christian. But perhaps the vamps of other ethnicities would have their own little quirks. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/139 "2001-11-16T06:25:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lolagranola \* > \*\*Someone at The Bronze mentioned that parts of Tabula Rasa seemed to come from Restless. I haven’t seen Tabula Rasa yet, but I will compare afterwards. \*\* One thing that comes to mind is that Spike is dressed in the exact same tweed suit that he wears in Tabula Rasa. And I _believe_ that Giles refers to Spike as “Son” in Restless Thanks all for answering my question regarding Vampire characteristics in other mythos… Now I’m wondering…where the heck does Giles get all of his money from? I know that for a few years he received a double salary: he was on the payroll of the Watcher’s Council & the Sunnydale School District. And, yeah, he’s a single guy w/no children. Maybe he saves his money very well–he lives in a modest apartment, obviously doesn’t put a lot of money into his car. It seems that his only major expenses are rare books & documents (and tweed suits!). But still, he must have saved a _lot_ of money. He didn’t work for a full year, and never mentioned he was under any financial strain. He then bought a fully-stocked magic shop in downtown Sunnydale. He has the money to move back to England to settle down…and _still_ had enough money left to write Buffy a hefty check to solve her financial problems! The show has never presented Giles as being a wealthy guy–almost the opposite. Yet he always has money when it’s necessary to the storyline. So is it just a plot device, or did I miss some of his backstory? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2001, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720/140 "2001-11-16T07:29:05Z")
I suspect Giles comes from money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-mythology-grab-bag-spoilers/87720.md?page=8)