# Buffy, Angel, Riley, Spike, sex, souls and true happiness....Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 14, 2002, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-riley-spike-sex-souls-and-true-happiness-huh/132279 "2002-10-14T21:49:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 6\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2002, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-riley-spike-sex-souls-and-true-happiness-huh/132279/21 "2002-10-15T20:57:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Revtim_ > I’m still kind of iffy on what having a soul means on the show. Spike clearly felt love for both Drusilla and Buffy before he had a soul, which I wouldn’t have made possible if I were writing the show. I think that, when some people are turned into vampires, sometimes a little bit of their soul remains behind. Remember when the Judge used his power to kill a vampire shortly after being put back together? That vamp still had some residual soul left in him. The Judge hinted that Spike did, too. Angelus, on the other hand, was completely devoid of a soul (the Judge couldn’t hurt him) and was revolted by the idea of love: he wanted to kill Buffy for having made him feel compassion. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by SuaSponte_ > Here’s my take: I never considered the “Angel experiences true happiness and the curse is lifted” to be an intentional part of the curse. Instead, I’ve always thought it showed the limits of the power of the Gypsies when they cursed Angel. If, despite the curse, Angel felt a moment of true happiness, the curse had failed and was destroyed. I get what you’re saying, and I think you might not be far off. Traditionally, curses always have to have an “out,” a way of lifting the curse: get kissed by a prince, fall in love despite being a big, hairy beast, etc. The gypsies cursed Angelus, not Angel. Therefore, the “out” has to be something that end up aiding Angelus, not Angel. The gypsy who cursed Angel tailored the out to the curse, but I don’t think he had a choice about including it in the spell. ---
**Author:** ![Edwardina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Edwardina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edwardina)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-riley-spike-sex-souls-and-true-happiness-huh/132279/22 "2002-10-16T00:25:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\*RE-Baby > When the prophecy of “The father will kill the son” came to light, I figured that the gypsy curse was the explanation. Angel(who’s mistakenly convinced that being celibate will keep the curse from kicking in) is holding his infant son. Connor looks deep into daddy’s eyes and emits a contented gurgle. Angel experiences true happiness. Instead, the writers went with a Voodoo Mayor McCheese telling half-truths. \*\* I wondered about this myself, all through last season. They’re always making jokes on the show about Angel being “a eunuch” now, and going on and on about how he dare not have sex. But it’s not about sex, it’s about _happiness_, and it sure looked at times like Connor made him very happy. I was waiting for the coin to drop with people that sex wasn’t the only thing that might make Angel turn back into Angelus. It might have been Connor, or if Cordy had actually been able to tell him that she loved him . . . ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-riley-spike-sex-souls-and-true-happiness-huh/132279/23 "2002-10-16T01:11:16Z")
Yeah, and Angel obviously shagged Darla, which made Connor possible, and, as has already been pointed out, he didn’t experience that soul-evicting moment of happiness. And what was Angel doing shagging Darla anyway? I thought she was supposed to be evil. Maybe I should start watching _Angel_, or at least bop down to [Buffyguide.com](http://Buffyguide.com) and read the episode summaries so I know what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-riley-spike-sex-souls-and-true-happiness-huh/132279/24 "2002-10-16T02:43:25Z")
I just answered my on question by re-watching season one - the pack. FY’aI, animals have spirits, which, depending on the animal, may or may not be demon-like. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2002, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-riley-spike-sex-souls-and-true-happiness-huh/132279/25 "2002-10-16T16:20:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\*‘The moment that soul gives him an instant of happiness, it is taken away.’ > > ``` > 'But won't he start killing again then?' > > 'Am I talking to the wall here? Justice doesn't matter. Right and wrong don't matter. Vengance is all that matters. Now, leave so I can die like an idiot.' ** > > ``` As Joss says on the DVD commentary to this episode (Innocence?), the curse isn’t supposed to make sense. For the gypsies, vengeance is a living thing; therefore, like the rest of us, it can be irrational. That’s why the perfectly valid observation that the curse is flawed is immaterial – this is just the way it works. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2002, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-riley-spike-sex-souls-and-true-happiness-huh/132279/26 "2002-10-17T02:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\*My question about the curse regards the episode I Will Remember You. He was made human, decided he put Buffy at risk, and asked to be made a vamp with asoul again. I’m sure the Oracles or whoever didn’t use the same gypsey curse, did they? \*\* Actually, he asked the Oracles to turn back time to before he became human, which they did. So presumably it’s the same curse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-angel-riley-spike-sex-souls-and-true-happiness-huh/132279.md?page=1)