Eyghon, I think it was called.
Angel said something about his having had a demon in him for a long time, so it was no contest.
I suddenly recall something about “aspects” or “essences” of demons, which possibly can be analogous to (but are distinct from) souls.
Aargh! Make that “…and not just because of the…”
Oh forgot about the Master’s revival and later Darla’s which actually hep reinforce the idea of a demon ‘soul’ oras another poster put it, ‘essense.’ And, if you do accept the idea of a demon ‘essense’ it’s largely just a somantic leap to arrive at the idea of a demon soul.
I think the reason we never see reference to the idea of a demon soul is first, the story is told largely from a human perspectiveusing human definitions for concepts. A demon soul is not immediately recognizable to a scholar and thus is determined not to exist. Second, and this goes back to my idea that demon souls tend to just as different from human souls as demons are physically, that demons souls and physical forms are tied closer together then their human counterparts.
From what is shown in the show, human souls seem extremely mobile and self-contained. They pop in and out of bodies with fewproblems. They go back and forth from the afterlife relatively easily [which is not to say -easy- but compare demon ressurection rituals in the show to human ones]. I think of human souls like a filament inside of a bulb. You can take the filiment out, pop it into another bulb, as well as easily perceive its presense as a separate entity [which is why perhaps so many demons/vampires can easily perceive who has and who hasn’t a soul].
On the other hand, demon souls tend to be closer to the gas in a neon light. They glow just light a filament bulb, serve much the same function and concept is the same [a glowing bit inside of a glass shell powered by electricity] but it is much harder to perceive the actual light source [the gas] from the form [the glass]. Likewise, it is harder to transfer, repair etc. Both are still lights [souls] and perform the same function but they operate very differently.
Since humans are the dominant species in the buffyverse, their own concept of ‘the soul’ has dominated. Thus, when they speak of a soul [light] what they really mean is a human soul [filament] since that is the only one they recognize. The fact that all other species also have souls [lights]doesn’t enter into their heads since they don’t recognize that there can be a light which isn’t a filament.
Not to say I actually think the writers had this idea in the back of their head when writing the show. I doubt they gave it much thought actually which is a pity, every created world should have internally consistent rules. Of course, these were TV shows so it might be asking too much but hey, I can dream.
More on this, which, if present in the show pretty much makes my point exactly. I would contend that both ‘aspect’ or ‘essence’ -are- in fact souls but because of human dominance [humancentrisism?] the language/concept has been corrupted to the point where soul really just means -human- soul. After all, why would you want to have anything as central as asoul in commonwith nasty vile creatures who want to eat you.
I think the demons have souls. It seems to me there’s three levels of “person” at play, here - the body, the personality, and the soul.
Normally, humans in the Buffyverse start out with all three their own.
Demons, I would say, definetly have their own body to start with. They also have their own personality. Some of them may have souls.
However, a Vampire soul does not seem to have personality on it’s own, nor body.
When a human is turned, their soul is “trapped” within their body - it cannot interact with the body - however, it would seem to keep it’s personality (as a non-personality having soul would not suffer pain from a demon also inhabiting the body). We know the body remains. The personality, from what we’ve seen, also remains. The “main” soul is now that of a demon’s, however. Thus we now have a demon soul with a human personality and a human body.
To give another example, when Faith and Buffy switch bodies, they switch minds and souls - they switch personalities, clearly, and also they switch souls, because we see that they switch motivations.
So it’s quite possible that demons don’t have souls - they could just have body and personality. Vampires would seem to have the demon version of a soul, though, so it’s likely other demons also have souls.
I never understood the loss of the soul when turned as becoming “possessed” by a demon. I always thought that the demon part was everyone’s own inner demon and that what is termed as the “soul” was the compassion, empathy, goodness, etc that kept the inner demon at bay. When Darla was turned the second time it didn’t seem to me a resurrection like they wanted the Master’s to seem. It was just another transformation back to “soullessness”. Yet she became her same old self. No spell was cast to give her old demon essence back like Spike and Angel went through to get their souls back. And I didn’t see Spike change that much after he got his soul back. He already sacrificed himself when he decided to earn his soul back. Angelus would have killed your whole family for just suggesting he do something like that.
And as far as Vengeance Demons go, I believe D’Hoffryn was looking for those with souls and yet capable of having the qualities of a VD. He recruited Anya and attempted to recruit Willow after they displayed some pretty horrific vengeance of their own as “normal” humans. So, I think a soul may be required and if he just wanted a “soulless” killing machine he could have recruited from the already incorrigible vamps and their ilk.
I think you’re all looking for a master soul plan that ME never implemented. The soul was handy for certain plot points, but ME tended to contradict themselves depending on whether the situation warranted said contradiction. A good example of such is in “The Harvest” when the Master and Luke are getting their ritual boogying on:
Not mere poetry, kiddos–he was chomping at the fang about his soul. Except, of course, later on in the series we find out vampires don’t have souls and are heartless, cruel killing machines devoid of human emotion (or else, hey, have it burned outta ya by the Judge). Except when they aren’t, which was whenever the writers needed an interesting character. (Spike, the Gorch brothers, Drusilla, etc…)
My feeling is that there is no great pattern ME followed; just whatever worked best with the episode or arc at the time. (And it all worked out pretty well.)
Yeah, that’s how I understood it, as well. Darla’s anguish at the burden of the soul within her early in Season 2 of “Angel” came even though she was fully human. It was strongly implied that this human Darla was still more like the vampire Darla than the anonymous, dying prostitute that the Master turned 400 years ago. Therefore, the only difference between the vampire and the human is the presence or lack of the soul, the compassion. The vampire isn’t a human body/mind being controlled by a demon from without, but rather the same human minus its conscience, and therefore controlled by the demons that were always there within. It’s a question of losing something rather than gaining something new.
Now, matching that up with everything stated on the show takes a bit of fanwank, admittedly. But not much: if we assume that the Watchers were just plain wrong in their description of vampires, either because they were lying to ensure that the Slayer didn’t begin to empathize with her targets, or because they simply didn’t know, then the inconsistencies can be safely ignored. Given the portrayal of the Watchers Council throughout the series as both manipulative and short-sighted, this explanation isn’t hard for me to accept.
That’s not really surprising. After all, she was only human for twenty years, and she was a vampire for four hundred. And let’s not forget that OriginalRecipe human Darla was fairly amoral. A life like hers will do that to you.
I don’t know about that. Even in my worst moments, I’ve never gone all bumpy in the face and made a meal of anyone. The soul may be absent, or it may be supressed, but either way, there is definitely an actual, from-the-depths-of-hell demon in the house, and it’s in charge.
I don’t find this hard to accept, either. I think even Joss would acknowledge this as a possibility. After all, 100 years ago, there was still debate as to whether women had souls!
There’s also an episode of Angel where Angel and the rest of them go to another dimension or something (it’s the one where Fred is introduced), and Angel transforms so that his demon is fully visible. So, yeah, I think Whedon definately made his vampires corpses possessed by demons.
Sorry, just had to ask this…100 years ago, among people who believed in the soul, who seriously took the position that women didn’t have one? I’m pretty sure your statement isn’t true.
No, that was a bit of hyperbole on my part. Thomas Aquinas rather famously asserted that women don’t have souls, but that was a *thousand * years ago, and I don’t believe that any church has ever taught that women are soulless, It’s been debated, but certainly longer than 100 years ago.
No he didn’t. That was a myth. Here’s an article debunking it:
Here’s another article discussing Aquinas and women:
And that could be what his inner demon looks like. Surely being transformed into a vamp does more than make you lose your soul. I just think it is biological. From whence does the invading demon come? Why doesn’t the demon have its own history or memories? If it is “born” anew into them, how can Darla revert to her same self when she changed a second time? Or Angel becomes the old Angelus?(although not quit the same because he never truely turns back to human)
I admit, it could be an unintentional influence of Anne Rice on me, but I see the transformation into the vampire more physical and psychological than spiritual. And other than the writer’s creative license they use at times to fit a storyline, I haven’t really seen anything in the Buffyverse to contradict that.