# Buffy, God, and the Devil
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [June 17, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533 "2003-06-17T20:07:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)
#### Post date: [June 20, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/41 "2003-06-20T17:36:55Z")
Yeah, I mentioned something like that in my original post, but I meant simple and consistent in the show’s universe.
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### Author:  [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)
#### Post date: [June 21, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/42 "2003-06-21T02:04:54Z")
This might seem like little more than semantics, but… does _christian_ holy water work against vampires? For all we know, the holy water that the Magic Box sells was blessed by Hecate or Osiris, not God. Catholic holy water might not work at all; I don’t have a clear recollection of it working on Buffy or Angel, but I haven’t seen every episode of either show (I’m working on it, though).
Crosses were adopted as a christian symbol because of the crucifixion of Christ. Crucifixion was/is a method of execution deliberately designed to be slow and painful (usually takes days). Perhaps they originally tried crucifying people on non-cross-shaped frames, but vampires kept stealing the condemned at night (after all, they would have been easy prey). Then someone had the idea of crucifying people on cross-shaped frames, since crosses ward off vampires (and could even before the crucifixion). Crosses may have been the symbol of an older, now-forgotten god, and that’s why they repel vampires. The fact that a christian cross symbol repels vampires is incidental.
Okay, so I’m just making this all up, but I don’t think Buffyverse canon contradicts my cross theory.
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### Author:  [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/43 "2003-06-25T16:22:46Z")
I hate to resurrect this discussion (no I don’t), but I just remembered something last night: Didn’t Angel’s hands burn when someone once handed him a Bible? This was in the episode where the hotel was introduced for the first time on the Angel show. Yet more evidence for my side.
Sorry, I just had to share that. You now have my permission to return to your grey and joyless lives.
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### Author:  [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/44 "2003-06-25T16:26:58Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Sinungaling \*
> \*\*I hate to resurrect this discussion (no I don’t), but I just remembered something last night: Didn’t Angel’s hands burn when someone once handed him a Bible? This was in the episode where the hotel was introduced for the first time on the Angel show. Yet more evidence for my side.
> \*\*
That did happen but to be fair there was a cross on the cover of the book.
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### Author:  [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/45 "2003-06-25T16:53:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Max the Immortal \*
> **Crosses were adopted as a christian symbol because of the crucifixion of Christ. Crucifixion was/is a method of execution deliberately designed to be slow and painful (usually takes days). Perhaps they originally tried crucifying people on non-cross-shaped frames, but vampires kept stealing the condemned at night (after all, they would have been easy prey). Then someone had the idea of crucifying people on cross-shaped frames, since crosses ward off vampires (and could even before the crucifixion). Crosses may have been the symbol of an older, now-forgotten god, and that’s why they repel vampires. The fact that a christian cross symbol repels vampires is incidental.**
I just have to say, that’s damn clever.
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### Author:  [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/46 "2003-06-25T18:03:35Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Sinungaling \*
> Sorry, I just had to share that. You now have my permission to return to your grey and joyless lives.
Why thank you. :rolleyes:
As for what happened on Angel–shrug–I don’t know. I’ve only seen a handful of episodes.
But I did remember a hell dimension I forgot before. That brings the tally up to 4. Which one does Lucifer live in?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/47 "2003-06-25T21:16:56Z")
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by Sinungaling_
> Miller, maybe the gods are content to let their creations fend for themselves, and so stay aloof. Humans have free will, two arms, two legs, and a brain – maybe the gods figured that’s enough to last us. Humanity apparently hasn’t done too, too badly against the forces of evil. After all, the First Evil has had countless millennia to conquer the world, but evidently the world’s champions have always prevailed. I was waiting for someone to point this out on Buffy, but no one ever did.
Actually, my contention is that the Gods didn’t create the universe: the universe just is. Gods are just some of its more powerful inhabitants.
I like to think that, based on the events of last season’s Angel, that Jesus was just like Jasmine, except that he figured out on his own that a living, Earthbound divinity would do more damage to mankind than good, and allowed himself to be sacrificed for our sakes.
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### Author:  [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/48 "2003-06-25T22:30:22Z")
ooooh, **Miller** , I like that theory.
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### Author:  [@SkipMagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SkipMagic)
#### Post date: [June 25, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/49 "2003-06-25T23:35:43Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \*
> \*\*Why thank you. :rolleyes:
> As for what happened on Angel–shrug–I don’t know. I’ve only seen a handful of episodes.
> But I did remember a hell dimension I forgot before. That brings the tally up to 4. Which one does Lucifer live in? \*\*
My refrigerator, of course.
Who else turns that widdle, itty-bitty light on for me when I want some leftover mac and cheese in the middle of the night?
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### Author:  [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/50 "2003-06-26T00:46:00Z")
Certainly the agent of evil wouldn’t _reveal_ the Glorious mac and cheese. God must be in there too.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/51 "2003-06-26T01:06:05Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Miller \*
> \*\*
> I like to think that, based on the events of last season’s Angel, that Jesus was just like Jasmine, except that he figured out on his own that a living, Earthbound divinity would do more damage to mankind than good, and allowed himself to be sacrificed for our sakes. \*\*
Being Jewish, ;j I may be unclear on all the details but I thought that the Jasmine story intentionally used a lot of Christian symbols and references and some AntiChrist references. Jasmine gives up all this power and is born into the world as part of a plot to make the whole world love her and satisfy her ego. JC(again correct me if I’m wrong here) gave up power and was born into the world as part of a plot to make the whole world love God and eachother and because he was willng to sacrifice himself for the sake of others.
```
Jesus' blood, shed on the cross and drank at communion is the way to truth and salvation.
```
Jasmine’s blood also grants a revelation-that she is a rotting, maggot-ridden monster, and that her love is a lie.
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### Author:  [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)
#### Post date: [June 26, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/52 "2003-06-26T15:49:41Z")
> [@](#):
>
> But I did remember a hell dimension I forgot before. That brings the tally up to 4. Which one does Lucifer live in?
**pepperlandgirl** , you’ve never heard of a certain _Divine Comedy_? Not that Dante’s work is considered canonical by the Catholic Church, but the idea of different levels of hell is one shared across many religions. It wouldn’t be a stretch to posit that it would be true for the Christian afterlife in Buffy’s world.
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### Author:  [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)
#### Post date: [June 27, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/53 "2003-06-27T16:32:37Z")
DocCathode- right on all counts!
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### Author:  [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2003, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/54 "2003-06-28T21:50:57Z")
I’m reviving this thread because a thought struck me :smack:.
The vampire bites the human. Either the human dies or becomes a vampire too, through the sireing process. The soul is replaced with the demon essence (or whatever, this is not important now). What happens to the human soul? Heaven or hell?
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### Author:  [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/55 "2003-06-28T22:58:04Z")
Now that _is_ an interesting question. The only two who could tell us are Spike and Angel, and they ain’t saying. Given that neither of them said anything about where “they” were before their souls came back, my impression was always that they were in some sort of limbo. Neither a heaven or a hell dimension.
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### Author:  [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/56 "2003-06-28T23:44:13Z")
> [@](#):
>
> What happens to the human soul? Heaven or hell?
The human soul goes to “the ether.” You can call it out of the ether with the orb. I can find the exact quote—I believe Angel references it in _Passion_.
Ahhh, here it is.
> [@](#):
>
> Angelus: I heard. You went shopping at the local boogedy-boogedy store.
> (sees the Orb on her desk and picks it up) The Orb of Thesulah. If
> memory serves, this is supposed to summon a person’s soul… from the
> ether… store it until it can be transferred.
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### Author:  [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2003, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/57 "2003-06-28T23:48:57Z")
Of course, one could argue that since the corpse that the vampire demon lives in, reanimates, is … well dead, then the original soul has gone off to where it belongs - i.e. good guy to heaven, bad guy to hell. Judging by how Spike and Angel lived, I would presume that Liams soul was in hell and the soul of William the Bloody was in heaven.
But then, that doesn’t make sense either, because Angel is tormented by guilt fram having a soul. And a soul that’s been to hell wouldn’t be like that, would it? And Spike? Well if his soul was in heaven, then _he_ would surely be tormented by Spike’s evil.
So I guess they were in limbo. But then, do all souls from people being turned to vamps end up in limbo? That doesn’t seem fair, does it?
I know the vampire world in generall and the Joss-Verse in particular, are full of inconsistencies. But I find the subject intriguing, non the less. Maybe because I’ve been having a few beers tonight, while burning all the Ats and BtVS ep’s I had on the hard drive, to free some space.
BTW, S.5 of BtVS is looking better, the more I think about it. And the ending was _the_ perfect ending for the franchise. Very poetic.
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### Author:  [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/58 "2003-06-28T23:54:11Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \*
> The human soul goes to “the ether.” You can call it out of the ether with the orb. I can find the exact quote—I believe Angel references it in _Passion_.
Ahh. But Buffy’s soul went to heaven (or some such). Why would the soul of a person who’s a victim of a vampire assault spend time in the ‘ether’?
Most of the vampires we’ve got to know agreed to be sired. That’s one explanation. But I doubt all of them actually agreed. Though it’s not shown explicitly, I don’t think **Jesse** gave his consent to Darla in ‘Welcome to the Hellmouth’.
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### Author:  [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)
#### Post date: [June 28, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/59 "2003-06-28T23:58:56Z")
Hasn’t Holtz commented on killing vampires largely in order to send their souls to hell?
I think being stuck in the ether makes sense. The vampire’s body is neither alive nor dead. Their soul is neither in this dimension or the afterlife.
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### Author:  [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)
#### Post date: [June 29, 2003, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffy-god-and-the-devil/182533/60 "2003-06-29T01:40:52Z")
Makes perfect sense to me, **DocCathode**.
Buffy’s soul could have gone to the ether. We don’t know. She only thought she was in heaven—I’m assuming any place where she could rest, where she didn’t have to fight anymore, would be heavenly to her.
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