# Buffyverse rewatch discussion thread \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 23, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476 "2014-06-23T19:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/21 "2014-06-23T21:33:21Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > It’s not how old he is, it’s how young _she_ is. She’s 15(!!!) when the series starts and he’s still lusting after her. Even if he was only as old as the actor (David Whatshisname) it’s still a 30-ish year old guy after a 15 year old kid. Ew. If she was 25 and he was 50? No prob. If she was 25 and he was 250, no prob. But she’s 15 when the show starts and he claimed he was following her around before the show opened (IIRC). > > Sorry–Angel is a creepy stalker pedo. Also a whiney bitch. > > (You might be able to tell–I’m not a Buffy/Angel shipper. 😃 😉 ) It might be fair to add, that when Liam was alive there was little prohibition against relationships with 15 year olds. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/22 "2014-06-23T21:34:33Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > We can only speculate, since nothing was ever named. If he were reensouled by magic, perhaps there was an unnamed condition. Alternatively, perhaps it was just his reward for surviving the trials with no catch. > > On a related note, I’ve never been clear on whether or not the curse still applies to Angel after he gets reensouled by Willow during the Jasmine storyline. He slept with werewolf girl, but arguably he wasn’t in love with her as he was with Buffy or Cordy, and therefore wasn’t quite perfectly happy. By this point, Willow isn’t just trying to copy the gypsy spell like she had the first time, she was a bonafide witch. I always liked to think that she had figured out a better way of doing it, but I have nothing to go on except my own fanwankery. I don’t think it was possible for Angel to again achieve a moment of perfect happiness by sex. The memory of the first time would prevent it, as he would always be a little worried about it. And, of course, he wasn’t in love with Nina. And you’re right that Willow may not have copied the gypsy spell again and probably did not. But it’s not so much that she was doing it “better” than the person who originally created it, but rather that she had different motivations. The gypsies were trying to punish him, and as I said above, if he experienced a moment of pure bliss, the spell was obviously no longer doing its job and might as well be abandoned. Willow may have written a re-ensouling spell that would be undone if Angel were ever corrupted (I think there’s plenty of evidence from his own series that he could go evil while Liam’s soul was still resident), since, again, at that point the spell wasn’t accomplishing much. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/23 "2014-06-23T21:45:45Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > 1. Angel: Good for nothing Irish nobleman(?) killed circa 1750. Son of a prosperous merchant, but not noble ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/24 "2014-06-23T22:02:18Z")
\ ***Wesley:** If what? If you achieve a moment of perfect happiness? **Angel:** I turn back into Angelus, and we don’t want that… What? **Wesley:** Ninety nine point nine nine nine ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness. \* Spuffy Forever! ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/25 "2014-06-23T22:06:14Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > \ ***Wesley:** If what? If you achieve a moment of perfect happiness? > **Angel:** I turn back into Angelus, and we don’t want that… What? > **Wesley:** Ninety nine point nine nine nine ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness. \* > > Spuffy Forever! Ignoring the Spuffy remark: it seemed to me that Wesley (and later Fred) were right to worry that Angel’s next moment of perfect happiness was going to happen because of Conner. If Holtz hadn’t come along and Angel & Cordy had been allowed to raise the kid as they were clearly planning to, the baby’s first step might have caused Angel to change. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/26 "2014-06-23T22:09:46Z")
I don’t think so. The curse was predicated on Angel _not knowing_ of the catch. Once he became aware of it, that fear would always be in the back of his subconscious, preventing “perfection.” It took magical intervention for Willow to overcome that knowledge and flip him to Angelus. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/27 "2014-06-23T22:17:37Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I don’t think so. The curse was predicated on Angel _not knowing_ of the catch. Once he became aware of it, that fear would always be in the back of his subconscious, preventing “perfection.” It took magical intervention for Willow to overcome that knowledge and flip him to Angelus. Willow didn’t flip to to Angelus; they hired that done. Anyway, Angel may have associated the curse with _sexual_ love. I think he may have resigned himself to never been purely happy with a woman, or even Spike ;), again, but he and everyone else seemed to think that “perfect happiness” was a euphemism for “the perfect bang.” But if it meant exactly what it said … yeah, Conner’s first step, or first slap shot, might have done it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2014, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/28 "2014-06-23T22:21:55Z")
I sit corrected, but I still think that Angel being aware of the catch negates said catch. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/29 "2014-06-24T01:20:42Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > The age of the actor is irrelevant. David Boreanez and Sarah Michelle Gellar weren’t lovers; Angel no-last-name and Buffy Summers were. And I think Angel was turned when Liam was in his early-mid-twenties. Anyway, as I said, Angel was not a human being. I’m saying that I get squicked out when I see someone who looks to be in his thirties hanging around a high school looking for 15 year old girls. Yes, it’s fiction. No, David Boreanez (thanks for the last name–I couldn’t remember it! 🙂 is not doing anything wrong playing the character–didn’t someone have a meltdown a few years back about an actor kissing an underaged actress? This isn’t that). I’m just saying that the Angel/Buffy vibe in the first couple of seasons is just seriously creepy/squicky for me. > [@](#): > > Also, even by your interpretation, Angel wasn’t a pedophile. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children, which Buffy clearly was not. Feel free to use a psychological definition when I’m clearly using the word in it’s more common usage. You know what I meant. > [@](#): > > I know my pretend supervillainy is a running joke, but I’ve never understood this connecting of evil and cool. Angelus is a fucking monster who began his vampiric career by murdering an entire town, including his younger sister; killed and ate at least one infant; and jokes about raping women to death and after. Doesn’t fit my definition of cool. Cool=Good villain. Spike is a good villain. Angelus is a good villain. Angel (when with Buffy) is a snivelling wangsty emo douchebag and an emotionally manipulative one. After 1.5 seasons of seeing Emo-Angel whining–to see a really _good_ villain emerge and for Boreanez to really get to show his acting chops is cool. By contrast: The Master? Not a cool villain\*. The mayor (“All I want is to be a giant snake. What’s so wrong about that?”) is super cool. He’s got panache. Adam the demon/robot thing from S4? Sucks terribly. Totally luser villain. You really don’t see a difference between say Doctor Doom and, say, Paste Pot Pete as villains? Doom (to me) is by far the better bad-guy. He’s got panache, he’s got style and he’s competent. Heroes are measured against their bad-guys. Angelus is a worthy bad-guy for Buffy. Angel (with Buffy\*\*) is a sucky boyfriend and a super-whiney douche of a character. Darth Vader? Cool villain. Jar-Jar Binks, turned to the dark side? Not so much. \*Ok, a little cool, in that he took the entire “Evil Overlord’s Handbook”, read it and deliberately did the opposite every time he got the chance. Stupid, but ballsy. \*\*I was stunned when I watched the first few eps of Angel the first time round–I expected to hate it and instead ended up enjoying it as much or more than Buffy. When Angel isn’t around Buffy, he’s a great character. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/30 "2014-06-24T01:27:10Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Son of a prosperous merchant, but not noble Thanks! (and thanks to Skald too–I don’t remember a lot of the details (I really, really binged when I was watching it the first time) which is why I’m enjoying this more lesiurely re-watch. Maybe 2 or 3 eps a week as opposed to like 10 or 12 a week. For example I’d totally forgot his human name was Liam) As an aside, my only “spoiler-ish” request is if people would avoid giving specific episodes for stuff. I knew (for instance) that Kendra showed up in S2, but didn’t remember exactly where. I know she’ll die in S2 or maybe the beginning of S3. So if you all could just be vague about the specific episode numbers, I’d appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/31 "2014-06-24T01:30:09Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Willow didn’t flip to to Angelus; they hired that done. > > Anyway, Angel may have associated the curse with _sexual_ love. I think he may have resigned himself to never been purely happy with a woman, or even Spike ;), again, but he and everyone else seemed to think that “perfect happiness” was a euphemism for “the perfect bang.” But if it meant exactly what it said … yeah, Conner’s first step, or first slap shot, might have done it. Wasn’t there an (excellent) ep of Angel where there’s some woman (who I don’t remember but remember liking) back when they were in that hotel (so 2nd or 3d season) who boinks Angel and when he starts to get all whiney, she smiles and says something like “You moron :)…it’s not _fucking_ that gives you perfect happiness. You can boink women…not everything has to be ABSOLUTE PERFECT LOVE. Sometimes it can just be two people having sweaty fun and making monkey-noises” (I’m totally screwing up the words, but that’s the gist as I remember it.) That was one of the great moments in Angel. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/32 "2014-06-24T01:34:02Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > \ ***Wesley:** If what? If you achieve a moment of perfect happiness? > **Angel:** I turn back into Angelus, and we don’t want that… What? > **Wesley:** Ninety nine point nine nine nine ad infinitum percent of the best relationships in the recorded history of the world have had to make do with acceptable happiness. \* > > Spuffy Forever! ☹ I am apparently the only person in the universe who’s a Ruffy? Reiluffy? Bufley? Reilly/Buffy? fan.\* \*I ignore the mind-controlled Riellybot who got his kicks boinking vampire hookers (or whatever) at the beginning of S5 to get rid of the character. There’s no way to reconcile him with the cool, kickass guy from S4. I wish the characters had dealt with the fact that Reilly was clearly drugged or pod-personed or something. ☹ But then, I wanted Tara to live too. ☹ ☹ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/33 "2014-06-24T01:44:56Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > ☹ > > I am apparently the only person in the universe who’s a Ruffy? Reiluffy? Bufley? Reilly/Buffy? fan. Yes, yes you are. So much so that I don’t even think I’ve ever heard a shipping name for that relationship. The only time Angel got laid during Season 2 was with Darla (_Epiphany_). He stays good and she was **pissed**! ---
**Author:** ![Meloy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/58f4c7/32.png) [@Meloy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meloy)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/34 "2014-06-24T02:10:34Z")
I don’t ship Buffy with anyone, but the only somewhat healthy relationship she had was with Riley. She could never be with Angel and Spike tried to murder and rape her. Riley was just intimidated by her and could have eventually gotten over it if she’d caught the copter in time. My OTP is Xander/Oz. Xoz? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/35 "2014-06-24T04:52:23Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I don’t think so. The curse was predicated on Angel _not knowing_ of the catch. Once he became aware of it, that fear would always be in the back of his subconscious, preventing “perfection.” It took magical intervention for Willow to overcome that knowledge and flip him to Angelus. If that were the case, the gypsies telling him of the catch would have prevented it from ever happening. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/36 "2014-06-24T04:55:59Z")
IIRC, they **didn’t** tell him. He learned of the catch after boffing Buffy. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/37 "2014-06-24T08:38:26Z")
I’m a Ruffy shipper. Xiley too, if that’s a thing. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/38 "2014-06-24T09:27:57Z")
I think most of you are over thinking it. The gypsies were only interested in revenge so Angel was supposed to suffer indefinitely for killing “the most loved daughter of the tribe”. If he would ever get over this suffering and experience a moment of true happiness, poof goes the soul. For the gypsies there is no difference between Angel/Angelus/Liam; they are the same and need to suffer. Whether this is smart and what would happen if he ever reached this moment of happiness, was not very relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/39 "2014-06-24T12:33:37Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > For the gypsies there is no difference between Angel/Angelus/Liam; they are the same and need to suffer. Whether this is smart and what would happen if he ever reached this moment of happiness, was not very relevant. That makes sense, especially given how deeply stupid the old gypsy guy was. The whole “Um…the world might end if we screw with Buffy/Angel right now.”/“Don’t care. Angel must SUFFER!”/“You _do_ know that if the world ends, he won’t be suffering any more?”-thing shows that that particular tribe of Gypsies were were a few arcana short of a tarot deck. Which also leads to another instance of Angelus being a cool villain. The old Gypsy guy was (as far as anyone knew) the only person who could re-Liamize Angel. So what’s the _first_ thing Angel does (after trying to finish Dru/Spike’s plan with the Judge)? He snuffs the old guy. No game playing. No hostage-taking. No monologing. Bravo Angelus. I’ll always be sorry that you don’t last into season 4. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/40 "2014-06-24T13:57:41Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > It’s not how old he is, it’s how young _she_ is. She’s 15(!!!) when the series starts and he’s still lusting after her. Even if he was only as old as the actor (David Whatshisname) it’s still a 30-ish year old guy after a 15 year old kid. Ew. If she was 25 and he was 50? No prob. If she was 25 and he was 250, no prob. But she’s 15 when the show starts and he claimed he was following her around before the show opened (IIRC). Buffy’s birthdate (January 18, 1981) was shown on screen, so she was 16 at the start of the show (and 17 during Angel’s moment of perfect happiness). Angel is also given an on-screen birthdate (1727) and a date for his vamping (1753), so he was supposed to be 26. And in real life, David Boreanaz was 27 at the time the show began, so you’re exaggerating just a bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476.md?page=3)