# Buffyverse rewatch discussion thread \[edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 23, 2014, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476 "2014-06-23T19:28:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/61 "2014-06-25T17:59:45Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > QFT. Wesley and Buffy both let Angel feed on them and survived. There was also the vampire brothel that Riley went to, that precipitated his break up with Buffy. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/62 "2014-06-25T18:06:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There was also the vampire brothel that Riley went to, that precipitated his break up with Buffy. I remember being doubly shocked by that episode. The last scene of the teaser made it clear that Riley was being serviced by a prostitute but not what sort, so I thought, “Holy Zeus, they can’t be showing a blowjob on network TV at 7 o’clock, can they?” And then when they moved the shot in to make is clear that he was getting a different sort of suck job, I thought, “Wow, that’s actually worse in some ways.” ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/63 "2014-06-25T18:07:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There was also the vampire brothel that Riley went to, that precipitated his break up with Buffy. That was a Rileybot. The real Riley is still MIA, since not even a stroke could cause that kind of insane personality change that quickly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/64 "2014-06-25T18:11:33Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > That was a Rileybot. The real Riley is still MIA, since not even a stroke could cause that kind of insane personality change that quickly. > > 😉 I disagree. I saw that latent darkness in him pretty early, certainly by the time Maggie Walsh tried to serve up Buffy as a demon snacklet. ---
**Author:** ![polar\_bear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ec9cab/32.png) [@polar\_bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/polar_bear)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/65 "2014-06-25T19:12:22Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > Most of what I would have to contribute has already been covered. Magic in the Buffyverse usually has some kind of undo feature, so the “moment of perfect happiness” clause falls into the category of “hey, no spell’s perfect, and that’s probably never going to happen anyways, right?” The gypsies probably just shared Wesley’s philosophy that pretty much no one is ever going to really have such a moment. In truth, we should be honest with ourselves and recognize that the clause was written because Buffy the show is largely an allegory for growing up, and the explanation for the magic was written in such a way as to accommodate a story of “girl falls for guy, guy turns into colossal asshole once he gets what he wants, which is sex.” The fact that it happens to be mostly fanwankable is mostly happy circumstance. Actually, it seemed losing your soul with happiness is considered a feature… not a bug. As I said before: the spell is supposed to make Angel/Angelus/Liam suffer by giving him a soul that has to deal with the memories of everything he’d done. The moment this suffering isn’t the prevailing feeling anymore (by reaching perfect happiness), the reinstated soul has lost its purpose and the spell is designed for having it disappear again. The last thing the gypsies wanted is to have Angel living happily for a few centuries. As noted, they didn’t seem to care that this means we have another demon running around. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/66 "2014-06-25T19:13:48Z")
Yeah, Riley had fallen into the abyss by that point. He had fought dragons too long and had become one himself. **polar bear** - It seems to me that the Gypsy Elders were just as short-sighted and just as big assholes as the original Watchers Council. “We got what we wanted. Sucks to be the people we screwed over in the process, but whadda ya gonna do?” ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/67 "2014-06-25T19:14:38Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > As noted, they didn’t seem to care that this means we have another demon running around. Yep. As a character on the show said, the curse was about vengeance, not justice. If it were about justice they’d simply have killed Angelus, which they surely had the power to arrange. If they can put a soul into him from a distance, they can paralyze him long enough for someone to set him on fire at leisure. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/68 "2014-06-25T19:16:33Z")
Indeed, Janna’s uncle was pretty clear about this, “This is not justice that we serve. It is Vengeance.” ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/69 "2014-06-25T20:31:31Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > **polar bear** - It seems to me that the Gypsy Elders were just as short-sighted and just as big assholes as the original Watchers Council. “We got what we wanted. Sucks to be the people we screwed over in the process, but whadda ya gonna do?” The people watching him always gave me the feeling that if Angel ever reverted to Angelus, they were supposed to stake him. They didn’t count on how evil Angelus was though, so that plan never came to. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/70 "2014-06-25T20:38:14Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Oh, I agree that it was never going to happen via sex again, not even with Cordelia. I just think it could have snuck up on him some other way. Yeah, the only reason the ninja’s (or whatever he was supposed to be) magic worked is because he saved the world, his son forgave him, _and_ he had sex with Cordy. I can’t even imagine what it would take to make him flip a third time. ---
**Author:** ![EPoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f6c823/32.png) [@EPoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EPoch)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2014, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/71 "2014-06-25T21:15:37Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > However, it reminded me of something: the writers are just throwing deities name’s around kinda randomly. Because if you’re going to choose a Roman goddess to appeal to for a magic love spell, you might go with Juno (marriage) or Venus (love) or (ok, he’s a guy but) Eros (lust) or hell, Ganymede for gay-love/lust (sorta). The one goddess you _wouldn’t_ pick? Diana. The untouchable virgin goddess who turns people who oogle her into deer (I think) and sends hounds to tear them apart. This strikes me as just really, really sloppy. 10 seconds with a copy of any basic book on Greek/Roman myths would have solved this. Incase anyone wants to read the story [(shorter version)](http://www.shmoop.com/artemis-actaeon/summary.html): It was that one guy who had a hunting party with him and then, by accident, saw the “lovely” goddess in her natural form then turned him into a deer that would be hunted by his own party. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2014, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/72 "2014-06-26T11:22:24Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Yeah, Riley had fallen into the abyss by that point. He had fought dragons too long and had become one himself. LALALALALALALA ICAN’THEARYOU LALALALALALALALA So…who do you think built the Rileybot? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![NineLineMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9e8a1a/32.png) [@NineLineMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineLineMan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/73 "2014-06-27T16:24:48Z")
> [@Sam\_Lowry](#): > > But why the stuff about the moment of perfect happiness letting Angelus loose? That only torments Angel/Liam, it’s great for Angelus. Torture with hope of relief is worse than torture alone. Or… the happiness bit could be part of the deal for getting the soul back. Gypsy: Yo, Hades. Hades: Sup. Gypsy: You have this guy Liam’s soul, can we get that sent back up? Hades: No way, dude. Gypsy: Come on, man. He’s like second circle, tops. Hades: He is in the process of feeling bad. Gypsy: Not like you couldn’t use the space, bro. How about if we make him feel totes guilty the whole time he’s here? Hades: He’ll get over it eventually. They get over all kinds of stuff on the outside. Gypsy: As soon as he stops “feeling bad” we’ll send him straight back. Promise. Hades: Fine, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2014, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/74 "2014-06-27T19:07:09Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > It was mentioned in passing above, but it’s from “Dopplegangland”: > > **Willow:** That’s me as a vampire? I’m so evil, and skanky… and I think I’m kinda gay. > > **Buffy:** Willow, just remember, a vampire’s personality has nothing to do with the person it was. > > **Angel:** Well, actually… [pause] That’s a good point. That’s not quite right. It was more like: **Angel:** Well, actually… [Buffy Death Glare] That’s a good point. > [@Fenris](#): > > :(I am apparently the only person in the universe who’s a Ruffy? Reiluffy? Bufley? Reilly/Buffy? fan. No, you’re not. When I was Riley’s age, I was also a very tall, kinda goofy, grad student who went to work for a highly secret government agency [where they Never Say Anything], so I liked his character just fine. Wrong for Buffy, though - as Spike accurately stated, she “Likes a little monster in her man”. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/75 "2014-06-30T04:04:24Z")
Hope this isn’t too much of a spoiler, but there was an episode of Angel when Angel and Angelus actually spoke. It was in a magical dream state shared by Angel/Angelus and Faith trying to bring back Angel’s soul. Angelus and Faith are witnessing Angel’s mid-70s nadir He feeds on a dying man instead of trying to save him, tailspins and ends up living off rats and living in alleys Angelus talks about how horrible it was to have to live through all this. Being stuck inside Angel was torture to him. But the Angel speaks to them as well, showing that they are clearly two different entities. Angelus is not just Liam/Angel minus conscious. ---
**Author:** ![CaptMurdock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/captmurdock/32/11736_2.png) [@CaptMurdock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CaptMurdock)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/76 "2014-07-02T07:38:20Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The “moment of perfect happiness” clause is the one that still bugs me a bit. It might just be a catch in the original spell that the gypsy elders couldn’t do anything about. That’s why Jenny (and others, presumably, over the years) were watching Angel, to make sure that didn’t happen. Basically, it’s a plot device that Joss special-ordered from the Maguffin Plot Device and Storm-Door Company of Kalamazoo, Michigan. He needed to throw a monkey-wrench into Buffy and Angel’s relationship, make the ham-handed allegory of the “once a girl gives it up, the guy treats her like shit” paradigm, and torture all the little fangirls who shipped B&A from episode 1 on. The fact that it makes absolutely NO sense is immaterial. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/77 "2014-07-02T08:28:23Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > However, it reminded me of something: the writers are just throwing deities name’s around kinda randomly. Because if you’re going to choose a Roman goddess to appeal to for a magic love spell, you might go with Juno (marriage) or Venus (love) or (ok, he’s a guy but) Eros (lust) or hell, Ganymede for gay-love/lust (sorta). The one goddess you _wouldn’t_ pick? Diana. The untouchable virgin goddess who turns people who oogle her into deer (I think) and sends hounds to tear them apart. This strikes me as just really, really sloppy. 10 seconds with a copy of any basic book on Greek/Roman myths would have solved this. Pointless anecdote : an ex-GF of mine used to be into most every kind of kooky half-assed mysticism and was a serial philanderer (thus, the rapidly ex- part). She likened the “predatory” aspect of her personality to Diana, because looking for a guy to date was a like a hunt to her. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/78 "2014-07-02T11:12:38Z")
> [@polar\_bear](#): > > As noted, they didn’t seem to care that this means we have another demon running around. Well, it’s one less demon running around, right? Before the curse, you have sadistic psychopath, and then the curse happens and you get angsty whiner worried he’ll lose control and turn back into sadistic psychopath. So, for the duration of the curse, you’re decreasing the total amount of evil in the world (but increasing the total amount of brooding.) Worst case scenario, Angel gets his moment of true happiness and turns evil again, but he was evil before, so we’re no worse off now than when the spell was cast. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/79 "2014-07-02T14:13:00Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > It was mentioned in passing above, but it’s from “Dopplegangland”: > > **Willow:** That’s me as a vampire? I’m so evil, and skanky… and I think I’m kinda gay. > > **Buffy:** Willow, just remember, a vampire’s personality has nothing to do with the person it was. > > **Angel:** Well, actually… [pause] That’s a good point. That exchange was one of my favorite throw-away scenes of the entire series. I was bummed that they cut it for syndication. It was also a halfway decent foreshadowing. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476/80 "2014-07-03T18:17:21Z")
> [@a few people](#): > > Angelus is cool/badass I always thought Angelus was kind of lame. He doesn’t seem to be especially evil and is almost entirely ineffective, in comparison to the legends. He claims to hate Buffy and her friends, and yet lets countless opportunities to kill them (normally individually) go. He often runs at even a hint of trouble, whether it’s Buffy or just an ally with a cross and a weapon he’d deal with in seconds if showing off or in Angel mode. > [@NineLineMan](#): > > Torture with hope of relief is worse than torture alone. > > Or… the happiness bit could be part of the deal for getting the soul back. > > Gypsy: Yo, Hades. > Hades: Sup. > Gypsy: You have this guy Liam’s soul, can we get that sent back up? > Hades: No way, dude. > Gypsy: Come on, man. He’s like second circle, tops. > Hades: He is in the process of feeling bad. > Gypsy: Not like you couldn’t use the space, bro. How about if we make him feel totes guilty the whole time he’s here? > Hades: He’ll get over it eventually. They get over all kinds of stuff on the outside. > Gypsy: As soon as he stops “feeling bad” we’ll send him straight back. Promise. > Hades: Fine, whatever. I really like this fanwank. I’ve been trying to make sense of the curse for some time, and have never come up with anything that convincing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buffyverse-rewatch-discussion-thread-edited-title/691476.md?page=5)