# Buh bye Rumsfeld. Seymour Hersh is takin' you down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335 "2004-05-15T23:34:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/1 "2004-05-15T23:34:01Z")
[If Seymour Hersh’s latest story](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact) is verified, Donald Rumsfeld is personally responsible for for extending a “gloves off” policy against “high value targets” in Afghanistan to cab drivers, militia men and people off the street in Iraq. Hersh’s sources are usually golden. Rumsfeld can’t survive this. He’s just been testifying that it’s all a bizarre aberration of a few badly trained troops. I’m not sure if he was under oath – if so it’s conceivable he could be charged with perjury. And I wonder if Hersh worked it this way deliberately? It depends, I suppose, on when he knew the various parts of the story – the abuse, the pictures, the investigation, the black Afghan program. Did Hersh know months ago the Rumsfeld approve this secret program, and release the story in a manner that would lead Rumsfeld into a series of provable lies? Or did the abuse story loosen up more tongues among Hersh’s sources as they tried to explain how it all happened? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/2 "2004-05-15T23:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Down went the gun-ner, a bul - let was his fate > Down went the gun-ner, and then the gun-ner’s mate > Up jumped the sky pi-lot, gave the boys a look > And manned the gun him-self as he laid a-side TheBook, shout-ing: > > "Praise The Lord, and pass the am-mu-ni-tion! [Grin](http://www.digitaltimes.com/karaoke/singers/patriotic/praisethelord_and.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/3 "2004-05-16T00:01:02Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > I’m not sure if he was under oath – if so it’s conceivable he could be charged with perjury. It would appear so… > [@](#): > > [http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2502](http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2502) > > WARNER: I’ll ask our witnesses to rise. > > Do each of you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to give to the Committee on the Armed Services Committee of the United States will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God? > > RUMSFELD: I do. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/4 "2004-05-16T00:09:57Z")
What’s the point? You think we will get someone better? All it will do is focus attention off of Bush. He will be able to lay the blame for everything at Rumsfeld’s feet. Let him ride to November and dump them all at once. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/5 "2004-05-16T00:24:05Z")
**Reeder** , I share you interest in wanting to rid ourselves of the whole bunch in November. And I can see that Rumsfeld is now a liability for Bush. But Rumsfeld, Cambone, Miller and some of the others in this article need to removed from positions where they can cause further harm and cover up what they have already done. **Boyo** , the article was amazing. If it is true, I wonder who has blown their cover. There is mention that this is Hersh’s _first_ article on the abuse. I hope that you will flag us down when he writes more. What are his credentials? This is a nightmare. One line in Hersh’s article caught my eye for reasons that probably have nothing to do with the abuse: > [@](#): > > Cambone was a strong advocate for war against Iraq. Maybe that’t the problem. I didn’t think the war was supposed to be _against_ Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/6 "2004-05-16T00:42:47Z")
Seymour Hersh’s credentials are the least peccable you can imagine. [Consider:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh) > [@](#): > > His work first gained worldwide recognition in 1969 for exposing the My Lai massacre and its cover-up during the Vietnam War, for which he received the Pulitzer Prize for international reporting. > > His book The Price of Power: Kissinger in the Nixon White House won him the National Book Critics Circle Award and the Los Angeles Times book prize in biography. Hersh has written a total of eight books and contributed to the PBS television documentary, Buying the Bomb (1985). > > Hersh currently contributes regularly to The New Yorker on military and security matters. A 2004 article investigated exactly how Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld circumvented the normal intelligence analysis function of the CIA in their quest to make a case for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. His coverage of Richard Perle in another article lead Perle to say that Hersh was the “closest thing American journalism has to a terrorist.” Perle threatened to sue Hersh for libel in England where the standard of proof is much lower, but later dropped the case. In May 2004, Hersh published a series of articles describing and showing with photos the torture by US military police of prisoners in the Iraqi prison of Abu Ghraib. There are allegations that private contractors contributed to them as well and that intelligence such as the CIA ordered them in order to break prisoners for interrogations. It is said to be a usual practice in other US prisons as well, e.g. in Afghanistan and Guantanamo. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/7 "2004-05-16T00:49:28Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Reeder** , I share you interest in wanting to rid ourselves of the whole bunch in November. And I can see that Rumsfeld is now a liability for Bush. But Rumsfeld, Cambone, Miller and some of the others in this article need to removed from positions where they can cause further harm and cover up what they have already done. I’ll tell you if and when Rumsfeld will step down: when 51% of likely voters think he should step down. No sooner. Suddenly Bush’s talk about Rumsfeld doing a “superb” job will be forgotten about. Bush only stubbornly sticks with his positions when he can get away with it. Remember his initial resistance to the 9/11 commission and afterwards his resistance to having Condi Rice testify in front of it? He changed course when the polls were against him. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/8 "2004-05-16T00:52:52Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Reeder** , I share you interest in wanting to rid ourselves of the whole bunch in November. And I can see that Rumsfeld is now a liability for Bush. But Rumsfeld, Cambone, Miller and some of the others in this article need to removed from positions where they can cause further harm and cover up what they have already done. > > **Boyo** , the article was amazing. If it is true, I wonder who has blown their cover. There is mention that this is Hersh’s _first_ article on the abuse. I hope that you will flag us down when he writes more. What are his credentials? > > This is a nightmare. > > One line in Hersh’s article caught my eye for reasons that probably have nothing to do with the abuse: > > Maybe that’t the problem. I didn’t think the war was supposed to be _against_ Iraq. Zoe, Hersh broke the story of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam some 40 years ago, and won the Pulitzer for it. [Here is the closest thing to an online biography that I could find on him](http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/seymourhersh.html) . IMO he and Bob Woodward have the are the two best-sourced reporters in the business. This is by no means Hersh’s first report on the abuse story. He and the\* New Yorker \*published a story and photos the same week as the _60 Minutes_. He also published the first excepts of the Army investigative reports by General Teguba. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/9 "2004-05-16T00:55:18Z")
Wow. That story is really, really scary. If someone would have posted some of the allegations made in that story (e.g., that US Commandos go running willy-nilly around the world, torturing people as necessary to extract information and only certain high-ranking members of the executive branch and the pentagon know about it, that torture was given a green-light by Rummy), I would have written them off has belonging to the tin-foil hat brigade. I feel truly disgusted with my country. Does Canada need Oracle DBA’s? ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/10 "2004-05-16T01:06:46Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Reeder** , I share you interest in wanting to rid ourselves of the whole bunch in November. And I can see that Rumsfeld is now a liability for Bush. But Rumsfeld, Cambone, Miller and some of the others in this article need to removed from positions where they can cause further harm and cover up what they have already done. Rumsfeld is a liability – but Bush has consistently refused to acknowledge or even investigate any possible misdoings within his staffers (c.f. Karl Rove, Scooter Libby). So it’s quite possible that he’ll stick by Rummy, which could be a big mistake if the Congress wakes up and starts rumbling about casting Rummy out. > [@](#): > > **Boyo** , the article was amazing. If it is true, I wonder who has blown their cover. There is mention that this is Hersh’s _first_ article on the abuse. I hope that you will flag us down when he writes more. What are his credentials? Actually, this isn’t his first article on this subject. [Here’s the original article published two weeks ago (although dated last week)](http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact) – it was one of the first in-depth looks at this abuse. Hersh has been a reporter seemingly forever. He broke the story of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam; he’s written several books, including a bestseller a few years ago about the corruption in the Kennedy white house, “Dark Side of Camelot” and another about Gulf War Syndrome. I know he’s got a Pulitzer and probably a Polk too. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/11 "2004-05-16T01:08:16Z")
Crapples, **Boyo Jim** scooped me. Sorry for the repeat information, guys. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/12 "2004-05-16T01:24:26Z")
Apropos of nothing much, I thought this bit from **ElvisL1ves** ’s cite > [@](#): > > His coverage of Richard Perle in another article lead Perle to say that Hersh was the “closest thing American journalism has to a terrorist.” Perle threatened to sue Hersh for libel in England where the standard of proof is much lower, but later dropped the case. was interesting. Pearle called Hersh “the closest thing American journalism has to a terrorist” … and then threatened to sue him, too? Hersh could have done the same back. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/13 "2004-05-16T01:27:05Z")
> [@](#): > > In his weekly radio address, Bush suggested the abuse scandal was limited to those directly involved at Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison. He pointed out that charges have been filed against seven soldiers and the first trial is set to begin next week. > > “My administration and our military are determined that such abuses never happen again,” Bush said. “All Americans know that the actions of a few do not reflect the true character of the United States Armed Forces.” [http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/148764|top|05-15-2004::10:44|reuters.html](http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/148764%7Ctop%7C05-15-2004::10:44%7Creuters.html) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/14 "2004-05-16T01:36:51Z")
Hersh’s sources seem to be, by and large, long-time professionals who resent what they see to be ideologue civilian political appointees bypassing the checks and balances of government to advance their personal or partisan goals. That was basically the story behind his first best seller _The price of Power_, a critical history of Henry Kissinger in the Nixon White House. I should note that I briefly met Hersh when he lectured once at the Institute for Policy Studies in 1985. I got him to sign a copy of his Kissinger book, which I still have. ;j ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/15 "2004-05-16T01:44:14Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > What’s the point? You think we will get someone better? All it will do is focus attention off of Bush. He will be able to lay the blame for everything at Rumsfeld’s feet. > > Let him ride to November and dump them all at once. I certainly agree with the sentiment, I’ve just not been so blase about it actually happening. It boggles my mind that it is only in the last two weeks that polls show the prez with a below 50% satisfaction rating. It it weren’t for stories and scandals like this, GWB would be comfortably planning his reelection party schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/16 "2004-05-16T01:45:41Z")
> [@Boyo Jim](#): > > [URL=http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa\_fact]I’m not sure if he was under oath – if so it’s conceivable he could be charged with perjury. He was under oath, alright. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/17 "2004-05-16T01:56:09Z")
Hubris will bring them down. While the information in the article is upsetting, the end result will make it better. They’re going DOWN! > [@](#): > > “All Americans know that the actions of a few do not reflect the true character of the United States Armed Forces.” That was GW Bush, talking about his administration. Someone should produce a set of playing cards with pictures of Bush, Rumsfeld, Cambone, Cheney, etc. and pass them out to the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/18 "2004-05-16T02:12:33Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > Someone should produce a set of playing cards with pictures of Bush, Rumsfeld, Cambone, Cheney, etc. and pass them out to the electorate. I agree whole-heartedly with this sentiment, except that I’d replace “playing cards,” “pictures,” and “the electorate” with “indictments,” “names,” and “a federal grand jury,” respectively. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/19 "2004-05-16T02:14:52Z")
That’s quite a story. I’d pay money to be a fly on the wall when McCain reads it. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/20 "2004-05-16T02:18:01Z")
Damn. Well, it’s on the front page of [CNN](http://www.cnn.com) now. [Here’s](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/15/iraq.abuse.main/index.html) the story they’re carrying: > [@](#): > > NEW YORK (CNN) – The Abu Ghraib prison scandal was not the result of a few misguided soldiers, but of a decision last year by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to expand a clandestine operation against al Qaeda to the treatment of prisoners in Iraq, according to a report in The New Yorker. > > \ > > The Pentagon sharply rejected the author’s conclusions. > > “Assertions apparently being made in the latest New Yorker article on Abu Ghraib and the abuse of Iraqi detainees are outlandish, conspiratorial, and filled with error and anonymous conjecture,” Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita said. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335.md?page=2)