# Buh bye Rumsfeld. Seymour Hersh is takin' you down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335 "2004-05-15T23:34:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/41 "2004-05-16T05:28:18Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > Sorry but racism isn’t a concern of mine. Nor is it a concern of the war on terror. > > When has any administration official said “We are fighting the Iraqi’s?” We are fighting FOR the Iraqi’s so that they can enjoy the same democracy that we, unfortunately, seem to take for granted. > > Your analogy is weak and I dismiss it. Tell me, then, what fighting in Iraq (not to mention the torture) is doing for the war on terror. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/42 "2004-05-16T05:29:47Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > Cites? If you have them I will review them. But it seems to me if people were being murdered and 12 year olds were being raped then someone, oh I dunno like CNN or Congress, would have at least made mention. From [the BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3685669.stm) > [@](#): > > US military officials say there have been 25 deaths of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan since December 2002, two of which have been classified as murder. [Twelve-year old Iraqi girl stripped naked and beaten](http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2894655) (Note: **Diogenes** mentioned the girl was tortured; you were the one who changed it to rape.) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/43 "2004-05-16T05:31:29Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > Well, then give a cite. A nice big fat juicy link to a reputable news organization that supports your position. > Besides the “poet-genius-artist” at your suburban Starbucks, of course. Fucking moron. Read the fucking papers, pinhead. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/44 "2004-05-16T05:33:42Z")
**James** , if we are fighting FOR the Iraqis, why are our soldiers abusing them as described by the photos? Do you think we’ll win hearts and minds by humiliating people simply because they are Iraqis? Remember, many of these detainees have, and are continuing to be released by us, yes us, the USA, shining light of liberty and all, because there is no sound reason to hold them. All this after they have been subjected to abuse by US soldiers, wearing US uniforms, representing us, the US of A. It sickens me. Is there any justification for it in you? ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/45 "2004-05-16T05:41:00Z")
> [@Denis](#): > > **James** , … > > Pictures show up in the press. Plenty of public and Administration outcry. No, lots of partisan hollering who believe that buck stops in the oval office only when its the other guy in there. Where were all you “perjury” and “rule of law” guys when Clinton didn’t know what the word “is” meant? At least be honest about what you believe. > [@](#): > > I have no doubt that many in the Middle East are nothing more than fucking savages. And yet, ironaically, I don’t. I honestly believe that most Islamic/Muslim folks would “just get along” given the chance. But there IS a virulent minority that does not. And while I appreciate that they may fear retribution from them, I can NOT accept the complacency of the majority. > [@](#): > > That being said, I have met many in the US that are no more than fucking savages as well. Yea, but those are all Yankee fans. > [@](#): > > And as far as your demand for cites go: Why don’t you do your own homework, hmm? Because I’m not the one making the assertion!! Its not MY job to prove that what someone else has said is true, its HIS. If you want to assert something as fact then YOU have a responsibilty to PROVE what YOU SAY when challenged. That the way you fight ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/46 "2004-05-16T05:43:55Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > No, lots of partisan hollering who believe that buck stops in the oval office only when its the other guy in there. Where were all you “perjury” and “rule of law” guys when Clinton didn’t know what the word “is” meant? At least be honest about what you believe. You know, the fact that you can, with a straight face, equate lying about a blow job with rape and torture sickens me. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/47 "2004-05-16T05:45:40Z")
**James** , here is just one of the stories from CNN about some of the suspicious prisoner deaths: [http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/06/iraq.abuse.cia/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/06/iraq.abuse.cia/index.html) Thanks to all of you who told me about Seymour Hersh’s credentials. He is indeed someone deserving of our attention. I am really embarrassed that I did not remember his name. And thanks for the link to the other article! Off to read… ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/48 "2004-05-16T05:45:53Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > No, lots of partisan hollering who believe that buck stops in the oval office only when its the other guy in there. Where were all you “perjury” and “rule of law” guys when Clinton didn’t know what the word “is” meant? At least be honest about what you believe. Yeah, that was probably perjury, but it was about something silly and completely irrelevant to his role as president. He was authorizing the torture of people in order to cover up his hummer. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/49 "2004-05-16T05:47:12Z")
> [@flight](#): > > He was authorizing the torture of people in order to cover up his hummer. Ummmm, wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/50 "2004-05-16T05:49:00Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > I don’t know if you deluded or just hopelessly naive. We are not fighting FOR the Iraqis.We are fighting for the business interests of the US. Our leaders could give a shit about the Iraqi people, and they are not going to get “the democracy that we seem to take for granted”. What they will get is US rule through a puppet government, hand picked by the US. And even that will take years. Then I really feel sad for you Spooje. You can’t even allow for the possiblity that our President is working, and our men and women, are dieing so that 25 million people in a country a half a world away can do something as simple as speak their mind. Cuz, I got news for you: he is, and they are. But to you its all big oil and Texas and Haliburton and JFK/Mafia/KGB conspiracies. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/51 "2004-05-16T05:54:42Z")
**James, James, James** , I wasn’t aware of the SDMB during Clinton’s Blowjob Scandal. If I was, I would have posted pages of diatribes about his fuckups in that regard. And as far as me having to cite my assertions. Well, fuck you. They aren’t mine. They are _fucking current headlines_ in case you hadn’t noticed. I see no need to back up every post I make when _they are all over the front fucking page of every major fucking newspaper_. Why don’t you take the time and trouble to find out what’s going on? As to some othe implications you’ve made: This is neither a liberal or conservative issue. This is about human rights and what this country stands for. It seems to have completely slipped your grasp. Again: do your fucking homework. ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/52 "2004-05-16T06:00:15Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > Tell me, then, what fighting in Iraq (not to mention the torture) is doing for the war on terror. Its drawing the interest of Al Queda to Iraq and making Iraq the primary battleground. Now, first, this was NOT the original intention of GWB. Fact is, and I freely admit, GWB naively thought that we would roll into Iraq, there would be parades, and everyone would just move on. But that’s not the world that we live in NOW. We must deal with what is going on at the moment. Its naive to think that everything will go your way. So here we are. We have a military force in the country and a highly motivated extremist force pushing back. Should we simply leave? Leave the Iraqi’s to figure it out thmeselves? It didn’t work in VietNam or Cambodia. Millions died when we left. MILLIONS!!! Maybe THAT’S the lesson we should have learned. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/53 "2004-05-16T06:02:29Z")
For fuck’s sake, **Carrol** are you reading anything in this thread? Let me reiterate some things for you in case you haven’t noticed: - 70-90% of the detainees in Iraq are innocent. - The abuses included rape and murder - RAPE AND MURDER- and some of the victims were minors, including a 12 year old girl who was stripped naked and tortured. - Is it ok to strip a 12 year old girl naked and beat her? Yes or no? Is there anything that makes it ok? - It isn’t just Bush bashers who are outraged about this. In fact, one of the people who has vociferously condemned these abuses is GWB HIMSELF! If GWB can be outraged about this shit then why can’t you? - Others who are pissed about this include Lindsay Graham, a trogolodyte conservative who used the words “rape and murder” (RAPE AND MURDER, asshole) ) to describe other pictures in the Pentagon’s possession as well as John McCain, himself a former POW. Are they all full of shit? - If Rumsfeld lied to congress should he be charged with perjury? Yes or no? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![JamesCarroll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@JamesCarroll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JamesCarroll)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/54 "2004-05-16T06:02:54Z")
> [@Denis](#): > > **James, James, James** , I wasn’t aware of the SDMB during Clinton’s Blowjob Scandal. If I was, I would have posted pages of diatribes about his fuckups in that regard. > > And as far as me having to cite my assertions. Well, fuck you. They aren’t mine. They are _fucking current headlines_ in case you hadn’t noticed. I see no need to back up every post I make when _they are all over the front fucking page of every major fucking newspaper_. > > Why don’t you take the time and trouble to find out what’s going on? > > As to some othe implications you’ve made: This is neither a liberal or conservative issue. This is about human rights and what this country stands for. It seems to have completely slipped your grasp. > > Again: do your fucking homework. So YOU make a statement and expect ME to substantiate it. ummmm… yea… that’s the way it works. Shenanigans!!! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/55 "2004-05-16T06:05:19Z")
L2[La Carroll]Cuz, I got news for you: he is, and they are. [/QUOTE] Sure they are. > [@](#): > > Iraq’s national soccer team qualified for the Athens Olympics on Thursday with a surprising victory over Saudi Arabia in Jordan > … > Saturday, the players lined up here for a welcome home ceremony, organized by American officials who bankrolled the team and who see the victory as an emblem for progress in Iraq. > … > L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. administrator for Iraq, arrived on the Peoples Stadium pitch in a helicopter, landing on a spot marked by a yellow smoke bomb. It looked like a piece of a Super Bowl halftime show, except that the helicopter was a military Black Hawk and **the stands were empty**. Bremer was flanked by a half-dozen bodyguards in black vests who cradled big rifles in their thick arms. A sniper scanned the perimeter from atop a stadium light tower. > > **"They didn’t even allow our families and fans to come for fear someone would kill Bremer,"** said Ahmed Ali, 22, a shaven-headed goaltender. [For Iraqi Soccer, a Qualified Success](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29860-2004May15.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/56 "2004-05-16T06:08:02Z")
What do you think is going to happen? Al-Qaeda is going to form divisions and meet us full force in the streets of Baghdad for a nice set-piece battle? Anyway, that’s beside the point. This thread is about Rumsfeld and the torture of Iraqi prisoners. You said you supported the torture because > [@](#): > > They will CUT YOUR THROAT!!! Or blow up a train. Or fly planes into buildings. Which, of course, begs the question- what the fuck were you talking about? Or, more civilly, what does 9/11 have to do with _Americans_ torturing Iraqi people? Iraqi people who we later released because, well, we shouldn’t’ve been holding them in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Denis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5e9695/32.png) [@Denis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Denis)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/57 "2004-05-16T06:10:29Z")
No, **James** , I am in no way making an assertion and expecting you to substantiate it. I am, though, requiring that you be hip to current events. If I was making some assertion that was not splashed on newspaper front pages, I would indeed provide a cite. Please learn the difference between “common knowledge” and “relatively obscure shit.” Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/58 "2004-05-16T06:19:23Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > When has any administration official said “We are fighting the Iraqi’s?” We are fighting FOR the Iraqi’s so that they can enjoy the same democracy that we, unfortunately, seem to take for granted. Which is really nice of us, because you know how those Iraqis are: they see you walking down the street, they’ll just cut your head off. You fucking moron. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/59 "2004-05-16T06:40:23Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > [Twelve-year old Iraqi girl stripped naked and beaten](http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2894655) (Note: **Diogenes** mentioned the girl was tortured; you were the one who changed it to rape.) Do you have any source other than an al-Jazeera journalist being interviewed by an extreme leftist? ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/60 "2004-05-16T07:08:40Z")
Here ya go (playing cards): [http://www.northernsun.com/cgi-bin/nsm/3565.html](http://www.northernsun.com/cgi-bin/nsm/3565.html) > [@samclem](#): > > Hubris will bring them down. > > While the information in the article is upsetting, the end result will make it better. > > They’re going DOWN! > > That was GW Bush, talking about his administration. Someone should produce a set of playing cards with pictures of Bush, Rumsfeld, Cambone, Cheney, etc. and pass them out to the electorate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335.md?page=4)