# Buh bye Rumsfeld. Seymour Hersh is takin' you down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335 "2004-05-15T23:34:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sunfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sunfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunfish)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/61 "2004-05-16T13:47:55Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > Whether Runsfeld is personally resposible or not I applaud the actions that were in the story cited by the OP. > > \ > > Oh my!! Some Iraqi’s were made to get naked. They were made to stay awake or squat. Oh my!! The horrors. We must be the evil ones. > > \ > > Well, then give a cite. A nice big fat juicy link to a reputable news organization that supports your position. Since **JamesCarroll** is apparently incapable of looking for information about the scandal despite his [newly-granted Mensa status,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=256423) and I’m feeling charitable this morning, I thought I would help out with a few cites here. Forgive the length of this post, but I suspect asking **JamesCarroll** to click on a provided link might asking too much. Excerpted from the [“Taguba Report” on Treatment of _Abu Ghraib_ Prisoners in Iraq](http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html) [Article 15-6 Investigation of the 800th Military Police Brigade, Part One (Detainee Abuse): Findings] (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > 1. (S) That between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), \*\* numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force\*\* (372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF). \*\* The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence.\*\* … > > 2. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts: > a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet; > b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees; > c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing; > d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time; > e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear; > f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped; > g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them; > h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his sfingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture; > i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked; > j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture; > k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee; > l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee; > m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees. (ANNEXES 26 and 26) > > … > > 1. (U) **In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):** > a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; > b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol; > c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees; > d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; > e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape; > f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; > g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick. > h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten an intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee. Another interesting bit from Part Two of Taguba’s report: > [@](#): > > 1. (S/NF) **The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention.** The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law. And there’s much more in Taguba’s report. Informative and damning of U.S. command at the prison, even if you don’t read anything else. But why stop here? Someone else posted this link in GD, but it’s worth repeating: > **[U.S. Military Lawyers Felt 'Shut Out' of Prison Policy](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-may-14-na-jag14-story.html)** > > They said civilian political lawyers were deciding how prisoners could be questioned. At issue is how to interpret the Geneva Convention. > [@](#): > > A group of senior military lawyers were so concerned about changes in the rules designed to safeguard prisoners during interrogation that they sought help outside the Defense Department… > > The military lawyers were part of the Army Judge Advocate General’s office, which in the past has played a role in ensuring that interrogators did not violate prisoners’ rights. > > “They were extremely upset. They said they were being shut out of the process, and that civilian political lawyers, not the military lawyers, were writing these new rules of engagement” … It hasn’t yet been brought up in this thread, but in case anyone thinks the abuse was just a few poorly trained yahoos at work, [read this article](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29988-2004May15.html) (from _The Washington Post_; free registration required). Note the party of the senators quoted! > [@](#): > > The fact that prison interrogations were so directly controlled by these military directives, as well as the apparent cultural sophistication of some of the abuses, has already led some lawmakers to conclude that much more experienced and senior officers were involved than the seven military police now charged by the Army with wrongdoing. > > Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) expressed skepticism during a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing last Tuesday, for example, that a group of military police from rural Maryland and West Virginia “would have chosen bizarre sexual humiliations that were specifically designed to be offensive to Muslim men [as the photos depicted]. . . . It implies too much knowledge. . . . And that is why, even though I do not yet have the evidence, I cannot help but suspect that others were involved.” > > [Lt. Gen. Keith] Alexander [Army deputy chief of staff] did nothing to steer her away from that idea. “Well, ma’am, your logic is correct. I think that the difficult part is to find out who told whom what to do.” > > Sen. Saxby Chambliss (R-Ga.) expressed similar concerns on May 7. “On the surface, you could portray the 800th MP Brigade as a Reserve unit with poor leadership and poor training,” he told top Pentagon officials at the hearing that day. “However, the abuse of prisoners is not merely the failure of an MP brigade; it’s a failure of the chain of command.” [BTW, here is an article](http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040511/D82G3F9G1.html) discussing the International Red Cross’s report on abuse of Iraqi prisoners, citing the percentage of mistakenly held individuals as up to 90 percent. > [@](#): > > The report says some coalition military intelligence officers estimated “between 70 percent and 90 percent” of the detainees in Iraq “had been arrested by mistake. They also attributed the brutality of some arrests to the lack of proper supervision of battle group units.” > … > It was unclear what the Red Cross meant by “mistake.” However, many Iraqis have claimed U.S. forces arrested them because of misunderstandings, bogus claims by personal enemies, mistaken identity or simply for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. A question I’d like to ask **JamesCarroll** - if the Iraqis in prison were so uniformly dangerous, [why are hundreds now going to be released after Rumsfeld’s trip to Baghdad?](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119909,00.html) (Bonus - A FoxNews story!) > [@](#): > > During his visit Thursday, Rumsfeld encouraged prison commander Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller to thin out the prisoner population as quickly as possible. Miller said 300 to 400 detainees per week are either released outright or transferred to the Iraqi justice system. > > Miller said he would cut the number of inmates at Abu Ghraib in half, to fewer than 2,000 from the current 3,800. So, **JamesCarroll** , is this still all just a liberal fantasy for you? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/62 "2004-05-16T14:03:47Z")
FYI, today (Sunday) at noon eastern time on CNN, Wolf Blitzer will interview Hersh on this story. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/63 "2004-05-16T14:27:37Z")
In **SunFish** ’s post (#61) there is reference to Judge Advocate officers going to the New York State Bar Assn, apparently because nobody was paying any attention to their concerns, complaints, advice within military channels. There was a passing reference to this in this last Friday night’s _Washington Week in Review_ on PBS, but otherwise I have not heard anything about this. Is there anything beyond the _LA Times_ item that will flesh this out? If true, and verified, it seems to me that the inability of the Army’s own in house uniformed legal staff to rectify abuse that they knew of is a pretty solid indication that the interrogation and prisoner handling practices in Iraq were tacitly approved of if not actually authorized and directed at pretty high levels in the Pentagon. Also disturbing is the reference to civilian (political) lawyers in, presumably, the Dept of Defense general council’s office involvement in drafting the rules to the exclusion of the uniformed lawyers in the Judge Advocate General’s office. It is worth noting that General Taguba concluded that the Command Judge Advocate at the 800th MP Brigade was ineffective and sought to avoid responsibility for what was going on at the prison. General Taguba’s investigation report (made under the authority of Army Regulation 15-6, not under Article 15-6 of the UCMJ – there is no Article 15-6), was of the 800th PM Brigade, not the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade so that outfit’s activities were only tangentially involved in General Taguba’s investigation. The report does mention that along with the MI types (“spooks” in soldier parlance) the Iraq Survey Team, the people charged with by God finding the weapons of mass destruction, were also involved with the interrogations. The plot thickens. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/64 "2004-05-16T15:26:39Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > Cites? If you have them I will review them. But it seems to me if people were being murdered and 12 year olds were being raped then someone, oh I dunno like CNN or Congress, would have at least made mention. They both did _from:_ [http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/10/scandal.tm/](http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/10/scandal.tm/) But the horror stories keep coming. An Army investigation of conditions at Abu Ghraib concluded that prison guards had carried out “numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant and wanton abuse” for months. The Army is investigating reports of crimes committed at other detention facilities in Iraq. Testifying before the Senate last Friday, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said the Pentagon has obtained more photos and video footage that show U.S. troops engaged in even worse behavior. “We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,” Senator Lindsey Graham said. “We’re talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges.” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/65 "2004-05-16T16:14:31Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > No, lots of partisan hollering who believe that buck stops in the oval office only when its the other guy in there. Where were all you “perjury” and “rule of law” guys when Clinton didn’t know what the word “is” meant? At least be honest about what you believe. Characterizing objections as “partisan hollering” in no way serves to rebut them. It may be an accurate descriptor, but just because something is hollered, doesn’t mean that it is false. Further, as to myself, I’m a registered Republican, a [GOPTeamLeader](http://www.gopteamleader.com/index.asp) from AR so the odds are that I’ve been sick of Slick Willie, (incidentally the name of pool hall a few blocks from the AR capital down by the tracks), for at least a good decade longer than you. So, even if Clinton had something to do with this issue and you had thereby brought up something relevant, you’d be proven wrong in your assertion that the hollerin’s limited by partisan lines by the fact that many who took issue with Clinton’s mendacity are also deeply disturbed by the current Admin’s perfidy. Clinton’s not a very good tsandard of comaprison. Comparing GWB to WJC and saying, “Well, he’s only as bad as Clinton,” is actually a condemnation of GWB. As Andrew Sullivan puts it the Bush Admin has “[humiliated the United States by presenting false and misleading intelligence](http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2004_05_09_dish_archive.html#108415840160364769)” The Bush Admin deliberately conspired to thwart the electorate’s the right to deny consent. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/66 "2004-05-16T16:18:31Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > In **SunFish** ’s post (#61) there is reference to Judge Advocate officers going to the New York State Bar Assn, apparently because nobody was paying any attention to their concerns, complaints, advice within military channels. … Is there anything beyond the _LA Times_ item that will flesh this out? More from ABCNews: [JAG Lawyers Say Political Appointees Ignored Their Warnings on Prisoner Treatment](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/JAG_detainees_040515-1.html) > [@](#): > > “If we — ‘we’ being the uniformed lawyers — had been listened to, and what we said put into practice, then these abuses would not have occurred,” said Rear Admiral Don Guter (ret.), the Navy Judge Advocate General from 2000 to 2002. > Specifically, JAG officers say they have been marginalized by Douglas Feith, undersecretary of defense for policy, and William Haynes II, the Pentagon’s general counsel, whom President Bush has nominated for a judgeship on the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. The president’s position that the abuses were due to a few bad men is looking increasingly untenable. ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/67 "2004-05-16T16:23:42Z")
I’m trying to tune into this on the west coast right now and the channel is BLACK. On both my T.V.s. Did anyone see this show? > [@Boyo Jim](#): > > FYI, today (Sunday) at noon eastern time on CNN, Wolf Blitzer will interview Hersh on this story. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/68 "2004-05-16T16:39:54Z")
**jellyblue**. Thanks for the link to the trading cards. I just may have to get a pack. **Squink** provided this: > [@](#): > > Specifically, JAG officers say they have been marginalized by Douglas Feith, undersecretary of defense for policy, and William Haynes II, the Pentagon’s general counsel, whom President Bush has nominated for a judgeship on the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit. Two more names for a deck of cards. _Douglas Feith_ and _William Haynes II_. So, **minty** , you ready for _Judge Haynes II_ ?? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/69 "2004-05-16T17:42:06Z")
You think I’m surprised by this Haynes guy getting nominated to the federal bench? Sorry, but that’s entirely typical of this administration. I was just reading [a new story](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989436/) in _Newsweek_ that discusses White House Counsel Al Gonzalez’s ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/70 "2004-05-16T17:48:40Z")
[dammit] You think I’m surprised by this Haynes guy getting nominated to the federal bench? Sorry, but that’s entirely typical of this administration. I was just reading [a new story](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/498942/) in _Newsweek_ that discusses White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales’ advice to the President that America should dump the Geneva Convention entirely. I knew Al Gonzales before he went to D.C. He was a decent and reasonable man, who I liked fairly well. What happened, Al? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/71 "2004-05-16T17:49:47Z")
Dammit, Part III [this new story](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989422/) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/72 "2004-05-16T17:57:36Z")
From [url=http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4989422/minty’s link Senate Armed Services Committee chairman John Warner declared the pictures were the worst “military misconduct” he’d seen in 60 years, and he planned more hearings. Republicans on Capitol Hill were notably reluctant to back Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. And NEWSWEEK has learned that U.S. soldiers and CIA operatives could be accused of war crimes. Among the possible charges: **homicide** involving deaths during interrogations. “The photos clearly demonstrate to me the level of prisoner abuse and mistreatment went far beyond what I expected, and certainly involved more than six or seven MPs,” said GOP Sen. Lindsey Graham, a former military prosecutor. He added: “It seems to have been planned.” ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/73 "2004-05-16T18:19:18Z")
Thanks for that story **minty green**. Very enlightening. So Bushco thinks we should ditch the Geneva conventions? Do they understand the ramifications of that upon our own troops? ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/74 "2004-05-16T18:25:35Z")
From the Newsweek piece: > [@](#): > > As to arguments that U.S. soldiers might suffer abuses themselves if Washington did not observe the conventions, Gonzales argued wishfully to Bush that “your policy of providing humane treatment to enemy detainees gives us the credibility to insist on like treatment for our soldiers.” ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/75 "2004-05-16T18:34:03Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Thanks for that story **minty green**. Very enlightening. > > So Bushco thinks we should ditch the Geneva conventions? Do they understand the ramifications of that upon our own troops? We don’t need no pansy-ass conventions! We’re 'MURRICANS! Anybody mess with our soljers, we whup their ass! And if we can’t find 'em, we’ll round up a bunch of “likely suspects” and whup their ass! Seriously (for me, at least): I remember Watergate, and I found the echoes eerily familiar. Like the [Huston Plan](http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/churchfinalreportIIIm.htm), which would “coordinate” all intelligence-gathering apparatus (including the FBI and the CIA) using a superagency under Henry Kissinger. And, of course, the “plumbers.” ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/76 "2004-05-16T18:45:16Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > So Bushco thinks we should ditch the Geneva conventions? Do they understand the ramifications of that upon our own troops? I certainly would not agree with the vacating of the Geneva Conventions, but all the same I think that doing so would have little to no impact upon how we are treated. In fact, it is assumed that when you are taken captive your captors will not abide by the Geneva Convention. Aircrew are required to get POW training, and I’m telling you, that is the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It’s very abusive, and very realistic, and we all assume that that’s the way it will happen if we are captured. None of us at risk of capture are unaware of what will happen to us if we are captured, and none of those things are legal under the Geneva Conventions. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/77 "2004-05-16T18:48:53Z")
The argument is that all this, this abomination, this savagery, this arrogance, is simply the Big Dawg approach to national power, just as explained by our old and honorable friend **Scylla** , so many months ago in the “Great Thanksgiving–Weapons of Mass Destruction Thread.” The United States being all powerful and all knowing has the right and duty to do what ever it wants to whom ever it wants, when ever it wants, where ever it wants, and has no duty to explain itself or justify its action to anybody. Clearly the conventions of government behavior mean nothing to this administration. Clearly its policies are short sighted and founded on the impulse to bulldoze any thing that gets in the way of its instant gratification. This administration appears to truly believe that might makes right and that the end, or the end hoped for, justifies any and all means. Democracies are not suited to be empires. We can be one or the other. We can’t be both. Apparently each generation has to learn that lesion. Please note that the occupation of Iraq has precious little to do with protecting our country from Jahadist horrors like September 11, 2001. This marks the end of today’s diatribe. ---
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/78 "2004-05-16T19:04:27Z")
**Airman Doors** , that you received escape and evasion training and training in what to expect if you fall into enemy hands (as did I although your training was probably based on the Vietnam experience and mine on the Korean experience) does not it any way make the abuses we were trained to expect and cope with the accepted model for how we are expected to treat and deal with people who fall into our hands. Because our enemy might be portrayed as a savage brute does not mean that we, a civilized Western nation with an organized and disciplined armed force, and with a government answerable to the governed, should ourselves transform ourselves into savage brutes even more rabid than our enemy. Just as soon as that happens then the Jahadist have indeed won. We cannot trivialize and defend the treatment of people who have fallen into our hands by arguing that our behavior is no worse than our opponents and still retain some iota of self respect. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/79 "2004-05-16T19:12:31Z")
> [@Spavined Gelding](#): > > **Airman Doors** , that you received escape and evasion training and training in what to expect if you fall into enemy hands (as did I although your training was probably based on the Vietnam experience and mine on the Korean experience) does not it any way make the abuses we were trained to expect and cope with the accepted model for how we are expected to treat and deal with people who fall into our hands. Because our enemy might be portrayed as a savage brute does not mean that we, a civilized Western nation with an organized and disciplined armed force, and with a government answerable to the governed, should ourselves transform ourselves into savage brutes even more rabid than our enemy. Just as soon as that happens then the Jahadist have indeed won. We cannot trivialize and defend the treatment of people who have fallen into our hands by arguing that our behavior is no worse than our opponents and still retain some iota of self respect. Believe me, I understand that. In no way did I advocate that we should torture people as a matter of course after capturing them, which is why I said that I “would not agree with the vacating of the Geneva Conventions”. My comments were in response to **Reeder** ’s comments, to wit: > [@](#): > > So Bushco thinks we should ditch the Geneva conventions? Do they understand the ramifications of that upon our own troops? My response to that statement specifically addressed the fact that we expect horrible treatment anyway, and repudiation of the Geneva Conventions won’t change that expectation one bit. If Bush were to withdraw from the Geneva Conventions I could scarcely imagine a scenario worse than those that have already taken place. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/80 "2004-05-16T19:49:40Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > … If Bush were to withdraw from the Geneva Conventions I could scarcely imagine a scenario worse than those that have already taken place. I think the US did, in essence, withdraw secretly from enforcing the Geneva Conventions, and was caught out. I wan’t go so far as to say that it led directly to the beheading of an American, as loons who whill do such things can always find a justification for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335.md?page=5)