# Buh bye Rumsfeld. Seymour Hersh is takin' you down! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 15, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335 "2004-05-15T23:34:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/121 "2004-05-18T00:12:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > It really bothers me when we hurt our own moral with things like day after day of prisoner abuse stories, I have to wonder who’s side are these people reporting these things are, and why are they blowing it way out of proportion. The biggest enemy might be from our own country supporting the enemy in ways that will cost more lives on both sides. Maybe they’re on the side of the truth. Did you ever think of that? Maybe they don’t want America to become the kind of state that tortures prisoners. Did you ever think of that? Maybe they’re aware that “the War on Terror” is a huge hypefest designed to make the American populace think that they HAVE to keep the single most incompetent and corrupt administration in the history of the United States in charge. Did you ever think of that? Iraq was a mistake. A huge, expensive (in money, lives, and goodwill) mistake. Committed by the Boy-King and his hand-up-the-ass puppetmasters to finish the job his father didn’t. The problem is that he’s using OUR money and OUR lives and OUR safety and OUR reputation to do it, and justifying it in a trumped-up, immoral, lying, manipulative, illegal way. If the United States sends this mess of an administration to the White House again in November, we will basically forfeit the right to call ourselves the good guys. Period. THAT is what we’re angry about. THAT is what we’re screaming about. THAT is why we hold the Bush administration in complete contempt and disrepute. Will we have anything left after another four years of Bush? Will we be able to say “We’re the United States. We’re the good guys. We fight for freedom around the world,” in 2008? I don’t think we will. At least, not without everyone else in the world pointing and laughing at us for being completely delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/122 "2004-05-18T00:12:57Z")
**kanicbird** , I don’t know what’s more pathetic, the idiocy it took to put forward your stupid opinions in the first place or the moral cowardice that it took to try to weasel your way out of them. We know you don’t have a brain, but do you at least have a spine? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/123 "2004-05-18T00:44:46Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Look I’m not sying there were/are not abuses but they are really minor and were under investigation before these photo’s came out. Yet another moron who thinks that rape murder and pedophilia are just good clean fun. What a shitstain > [@kanicbird](#): > > I have heard this line of ‘reasoning’, but can’t buy it, and their actions prove otherwise. If you look at the bombing in Madrid, it is clear that the terrorists would want nations to pull out, I must conclude, at least for now that the terrorists would vote for J.F. Kerry, which I hope we are getting more of the terrorist scumbags then are rushing to sign up. You have trouble buying the idea that the Abu Ghraib incidences won’t support and seemingly justify narrative pitched by aQ et al recuiters? > [@kanicbird](#): > > I want to add here, honsetly and truly, I do NOT understand the meaning of an illegal war, those who use these terms, to me have a fundenmental misunderstanding to what war really is. I state this to help you understand where I’m comming from. This group includes professional militaries around the world. Maybe you should be an instructor at West Point or some similar place so that you can straighten out these confused professional military types. As it is though, you’re just an anonymous twit with loathesome opinion that’s been contradicted by military and legal professionals around the globe for centuries. > [@kanicbird](#): > > …this was the 1st ‘breaking news about absue’ we heard of. If you substitute “I” for “we,” I’d buy the statement. Actually there’ve been stories of maltreatment and homicides previously. You’ve just not noticed. > [@kanicbird](#): > > We might have to ‘shock’ the enemy’s population to lessen their moral, and they will try to do the same to us. You’re saying that we’re fighting _against_ the Iraqis now instead of _for_ them. > [@kanicbird](#): > > It really bothers me when we hurt our own moral with things like day after day of prisoner abuse stories, I have to wonder who’s side are these people reporting these things are, and why are they blowing it way out of proportion. Hey shitstain, you’re talking about the US military here. [Rumsfeld said](http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2004/n05172004_200405178.html) that it wasn’t the media that uncovered the scandal, but the U.S. military itself. “They are the ones who went public in early January within a day or two of a soldier turning in material that raised that alarm,” he said. “The media has piled on for sure, but the public announcement was by the U.S.Central Command in Baghdad.” Why the fuck do you hate America so much that you all but call the US military traitorous sons-of-bitches for exposing wrong-doing? Shitstain, why the fuck do you hate America so much? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/124 "2004-05-18T01:05:45Z")
> [@](#): > > You are making some assumptions here, which is understandable from my rant that I corrected above. Basically I think most EWP’s are treated fairly, some have been humiliated, this was the 1st ‘breaking news about absue’ we heard of. It looked hyped up and unquestionably not abuse. Also I don’t think terrorists (yes just talking the terrorists EPW’s here, not the 12 yr olf girls) should be covered by the GC and should be treated like spies. So of course when you decided the media was overhyping the situation, you DLed the Taguba Report and read it yourself, correct? Because you wouldn’t want to come across as ignorant and as **SimonX** so aptly pointed out, a shitstain. I mean, if there was a major scandle sweeping the country and I thought the wacky media was overhyping it for their own nefarious purposes at the cost of our own fine, upstanding, young man who would never torture anybody, I would sure as fuck read the report that started the whole shit-storm. It seems like the reasonable thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/125 "2004-05-18T01:20:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Why the fuck do you hate America so much that you all but call the US military traitorous sons-of-bitches for exposing wrong-doing? Um, releasing those photo’s are a violation of the GC. Are you in support of our troops violating the GC, what’s that term you use, oh yea … never mind, no need to stoop to your level. Many people here have expressed a hatred of G.W.B. and his policies, I don’t think you would be satified with anything he did, you want him out and willing to take others (Rummy) out along the way. Hmmm, where did I hear this before. Anyway since G.W. had Osoma held up in a cave and ready to anounce his capture a few days before election day, I will expect a few more years of your hatred, just remember to have your blood pressure checked on a regular basis till Hilliary gets in in 2008 (and God help us all then). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/126 "2004-05-18T01:39:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Um, releasing those photo’s are a violation of the GC. Do you have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/127 "2004-05-18T01:42:41Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Many people here have expressed a hatred of G.W.B. and his policies, I don’t think you would be satified with anything he did, you want him out and willing to take others (Rummy) out along the way. Hmmm, where did I hear this before. What a load of crap. If you really think people hate GWB for no reason, and they’re so blinded by that hate that they don’t care what he does, then you’re living on another planet. People hate him because of _what he has done and what he continues to do_ - his policies, and his arrogance and secrecy regarding those policies. If he hadn’t made so many terrible decisions as President over the past 4 years, or if he suddenly started making good decisions instead, he’d be met with a lot more approval. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/128 "2004-05-18T01:47:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Um, releasing those photo’s are a violation of the GC. Are you in support of our troops violating the GC, what’s that term you use, oh yea … never mind, no need to stoop to your level. That’s the whole fun of being in The Pit. Why else come here but to engage in abuse and invective? Ostensibly, calm discourse already has a home. Given the circumstances, though, shitstain’s more than a little charitable. I mean after all, you:[ul] [li]have tried to trivialize murder, rape and pedophilia;[/li][li]espoused an opinion in favor of a loathesome doctrine held common by tyrants and terrorists alike that’s been contradicted and contraindicated by military and legal professionals as well as religious, philosophical leaders around the globe for centuries;[/li][li]and, as if these weren’t enough, you cast aspersions on the loyalty of the honest, honorable and patriotic men and women in our armed forces who had the figurative balls enough to show the courage to stand up for what’s decent and right with America.[/li][/ul] You and your kind, ( I mean ilk), make me sick, you America-hating, US-troops-hating, inexcusable excuse for a shitstain. :fakes puke noises for effect: :does it again: Why do you hate America so much? :fakes some more puke noises: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/129 "2004-05-18T01:50:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? I’ll save him the trouble of typing into Google: [http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm](http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm) (That’s not a cite of what **kanicbird** is claiming; it’s simply the Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of Prisoners of War.) ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/130 "2004-05-18T01:53:30Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Um, releasing those photo’s are a violation of the GC. … So? The US military didn’t release the pictures, and I’m sure would happily execute whoever leaked them. The media outlets who published the pictures are not subject to the Conventions. The military is now claiming that the release of other as-yet-unpublished pictures would indeed violate the prisoners’ rights. I accept that, but I believe that someone in the US government will leak them. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/131 "2004-05-18T02:03:16Z")
Given the nature of many of the revealed photos, it’d be easy as dropping Jello to make the case the release of the photos would constitute further “Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.” YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/132 "2004-05-18T02:11:39Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I see the news harp on the EPW abuse, I truly feel they are hurting the war effort. > … > It really bothers me when we hurt our own moral with things like day after day of prisoner abuse stories, I have to wonder who’s side are these people reporting these things are, and why are they blowing it way out of proportion. The biggest enemy might be from our own country supporting the enemy in ways that will cost more lives on both sides. I don’t suppose it’s occurred to you that the abuses at Abu Ghraib themselves are what’s undermining our war effort? You know, by blowing the hell out of the whole hearts and minds thing? Much easier to cast aspersions of treason at the press for having the audacity to exercise their constitutional rights by reporting on the situation I guess. Wouldn’t it be great if we just lived in a tyranny with state controlled press? Then we wouldn’t have any problems with them undermining our morale. ---
**Author:** ![ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ZombiesAteMyBrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZombiesAteMyBrain)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/133 "2004-05-18T02:23:57Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The wrongs are being corrected, no one is perfect and there are bad apples on both sides. I beleive the best way to handle the abuses are ways that don’t weaken our position in the war. I see the news harp on the EPW abuse, I truly feel they are hurting the war effort… Is the above an entry into a "How many cliches can I put in one short paragraph’ competition??? > [@](#): > > You are making some assumptions here, which is understandable from my rant that I corrected above. Basically I think most EWP’s are treated fairly, some have been humiliated, this was the 1st ‘breaking news about absue’ we heard of. It looked hyped up and unquestionably not abuse. Also I don’t think terrorists (yes just talking the terrorists EPW’s here, not the 12 yr olf girls) should be covered by the GC and should be treated like spies. Spies?? Isn’t it their country?? Who are they supposedly spying for?? Who decides which Iraqis are “spies” or “terrorists” and which are innocent civilians?? Following your interpretation of the GC to its logical conclusion, any Iraqi going about his business could be deemed a “spy” and just killed off. How convenient! ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/134 "2004-05-18T02:28:42Z")
You say what our troops were ordered to do was not very serious… read this… _**"I love strong opponents! It’s such fun to break their backs! said the Leningrad interrogator Shitov. And if your opponent (e.g. your prisoner) is so strong that he refuses to give in, all your methods have failed and you are in a rage? Then, don’t control your fury! It’s tremendously satisfying, that outburst! Let your anger have its way; don’t set any bounds to it. Don’t hold yourself back! That’s when interrogators spit in the open mouth of the accused! And shove his face into a full toilet! That’s the state of mind in which they drag Christian believers around by their hair. Or urinate in a kneeling prisoner’s face! After such a storm of fury you feel yourself a real honest-to-God man!"**_ —Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn The Gulag Archipelago Is that not torture? There was no physical beatings…no pain…just humiliation. So it would be ok for our troops to have been told that was ok to do? ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/135 "2004-05-18T17:32:02Z")
(I know I’m real late with this, but I can’t resist) > [@JamesCarroll](#): > > Well, bite my shiny metal ass. Uh, the tin foil is supposed to go on your _head_. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/136 "2004-05-18T18:01:49Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I wouldn’t say they have already won, but it would look like a victory for them. Who do you think the terrorists who are inside the US right now are planning to vote for? The terrorist attack on Madrid has shown that the terrorists would perfer a weaker-on-terrorism leader. I would assume, absent any other information, that they would want the same for the US Pres. I can see that other posters are tearing you a new asshole over other stuff, but I would like you to expand on this. What is the agenda of ‘the terrorists’? Do all terrorists have the same agenda? Do you believe that pulling out of Iraq = weak on terrorism and if that’s the case, how do you connect those dots? I’ll let you off the hook regarding what the Iraq war has to do with terrorism, but I really want to know what you think the terrorists want to achieve. And I want to know this, because knowledge of their agenda seems fundamental to understanding _how_ to deal with them. I mean ETA has/had the agenda of Basque country as a free and independant nation. IRA strives for a united Eire. But your assumption that the terrorists has an interest in the upcoming US election indicates that you think what person is sitting in the Oval Office somehow figures in the agenda of ‘the terrorist’ (by which I presume you mean al-Qaeda). ---
**Author:** ![jellyblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e480ec/32.png) [@jellyblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jellyblue)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/137 "2004-05-18T18:17:05Z")
_snorgle!_ Thus solveth the mystery of ‘What is an asshat?’. 😉 > [@BJMoose](#): > > (I know I’m real late with this, but I can’t resist) > > Uh, the tin foil is supposed to go on your _head_. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/138 "2004-05-18T18:17:15Z")
> [@JamesCarroll](#): > > Then I really feel sad for you Spooje. You can’t even allow for the possiblity that our President is working, and our men and women, are dieing so that 25 million people in a country a half a world away can do something as simple as speak their mind. > > Cuz, I got news for you: he is, and they are. > > But to you its all big oil and Texas and Haliburton and JFK/Mafia/KGB conspiracies. > > Sorry. Dude, how can you possibly say that after seeing the proof here in the cites people have provided? Bush and Rumsfeld and that whole boys’ club are really bad guys. We’re not talking about a blow job here. We’re talking about behavior that we condemn people for on a daily basis. Wake up and smell the bud, man. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2004, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335/139 "2004-05-18T18:47:33Z")
**jellyblue** : _Touche!_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/buh-bye-rumsfeld-seymour-hersh-is-takin-you-down/245335.md?page=6)