Of course, the rape of Nanking has very little to do with the United States, and what memorials do exist doubtlessly exist in the appropriate palce - Nanking. Slavery in the United States has everything to do with the United States, and it seems to me the most appropriate place to put a memorial to it would be in the nation’s capital (but as others have pointed out, the Mall might not be a good specific location.)
As for the Western expansion, hey, why not?
Here’s Part 2 of Sowell’s arguments against a Slave Memorial. He has quite a list of arguments.
Listing Sowell’s points, [ol][]Acts by whites based on guilt from the past are apt to be counter-productive.[]We should focus on proper behavior in the present.[]Apologizing for slavery is a fatuous exercise in collective guilt[]Supporting a Slavery Memorial will not win black votes for Republicans[]A Slavery Memorial would help perpetuate a sense of victimhood.[]It would also create a white backlash.[]White backlash is already a growing problem[]This sort of backlash has occurred in other countries where governments have singled out particular ethnic groups for special treatmentDespite assertions to the contrary, a Slavery Memorial would be racially divisive[/ol]BTW on point #8 Sowell is an expert. One of his books was based on research he did, visiting other countries and studying their cultures. His discovery was that preferences generally have certain bad consequences, which do not depend on the specific races involved nor on a past history of slavery.
So basically what you’re saying is to grow as a nation, we should forget our history? That any acknowlegdement of past misdeeds, should be forgiven and forgotten?
What I always find interesting, is when it comes time for African Americans to get any recognition for anything, the rules change or finally get enforced. It’s okay to have parades and memorials about everything and everyother “race” in this country, but when it comes to Blacks we have to be"colorblind" and not upset anyone…because they might ‘resent’ the blacks.
Yet when Blacks, “resent” the majority and for good reason sometimes, the Blacks are playing the ‘victim’ card.
Let me ask you December, should we have any memorials for any group of Americans, any Parades? In your “Beige” America, do we still get to have a St. Paddy’s Day Parade? A Holocaust Memorial? A Civil War musuem?
When i went to school, they didn’t teach us that Blacks fought in the civil war, or in any war except in Vietnam and that was because we saw them on TV. I though they were just “slaves”…broken people. It would have been nice to have a place to show the truth, no matter how ‘resentful’ it made the whites. Since when has the truth, always have to be pleasant? Is that vision, you have for the states, the PC of A?
What and I am interested, do you think the UNITED STATES, not the Sudan, not Spain, should do concerning its history and yes slavery was the linchpin, to the success of this country. Do we mention it in a couple of pages of high school history book, is that all the value those AMERICANS have to you? I guess any memorial to the Native Americans is dangerous too?
Slavery is the cancer of this nation, and like most cancers it’s needs to be treated aggressively or it speads. We have NEVER as a nation, treated Slavery aggressively and it’s spread thoughout our nation and weakened it. Everything we see today, is a result of that original sin and I can’t see how ‘ignoring’ it, will make it better.
“Sir you have a bleeding mole.”
“Yes Doctor, but I don’t want to upset the freckle next to it…it might resent the attention, the mole is getting.”
Sowell is wrong and misguided. His desire for a ‘colorblind’ society, forces him to consider ANY mention of race, a negative thing. He mentions the all white prom, well that prom (Georgia) was all white for decades, yet he attributes it to some “new” white backlash. According to Sowell’s world, if Black folk would just stop being “black”, the USA would open the doors for them, and the proms would no longer be all white.
Too bad about that ‘one drop’ rule.
Sowell is so simplistic, it’s frightening. No one is asking for an apology, just the truth. No, you don’t apologize to the Korean shop-owner, but you help him to understand how to protect his store and function in the neighbourhood. It’s not that hard to do, but he would rather be silent.
Silence equals death.
If I was an American, I would be opposed to a national slave memorial. My imperfect recollection of American history suggests that slavery was outlawed in much of the northern states prior to emancipation, and non existant in most of the present USA. It is primarily a part of the history of a small region of the USA is it not ?
I would also be opposed to any race-based memorial that would invariably entrench “forever” a testament to the victimization of a visible minority which carries with it the tag of influence a century and a half later. If America ever achieves a colour blind society, it would be more difficult with black children being brought to Washington to view an awesome memorial to the white man’s inhumanity and the violation of their ancestors. When this comes down to the personal level, failures in achievement will more readily be attributed to history rather than the personal present course of action. It is the “victim’s” response to blame others and we all look for others to take the blame for our own problems.
I try to imagine how I would be influenced as a protestant dutch boy, being brought to Amsterdam with the rest of my class to view a memorial to the devastation wrought by the Spaniards during the Inquisition. Would that possibly result in a negative view of Spaniards on my part ?
History is full of examples of ethnic/race based atrocities. If Israel and Palestine ever are close to finding accord, a national memorial depicting the suicide bomber in Jerusalem would not be helpful.
The US government isn’t white. The people who would appreciate a memorial aren’t all black. And memorials don’t have a damn thing to do with guilt.
What is counter-productive is the racism that underlies these kinds of discussions. There shouldn’t be a debate. A memorial does not hurt anyone. It’s a nice, meaningful thing to do and everyone who has a problem this needs to question why they feel like this. If it’s because they are tired of feeling “guilty”, that is clearly their problem.
How does a memorial keep up from focusing on the present? I don’t see how any of the memorials in Washington D.C has kept us distracted. Another lousy argument.
First off, the memorial isn’t an apology. And again, if people want to feel guilty, that is their problem. No one makes people feel guilty unless they want to feel guilty.
He’s right, but why would this argument persuade Democrats and everyone else in this county? The Repubs aren’t here to stay forever. Aa political parties come and go a memorial would be permanent and affect generations past our own.
You know what perpetuates a sense of victimhood? Knowing that this country has been in a state of denial when it comes to the horrors of slavery. Knowing that whenever one speaks about the ills of slavery, someone will inevitably chime in with “It wasn’t that bad” or “My ancestors didn’t do it!” It’s the ignorance of so many Americans that causes damage and makes people want to never forget. Whenever someone tries to tell me to forget, I automatically go into a defense mode.
I don’t care if it’s Sowell telling me to forget or some toothless backwoods hick. As long as people want to pretend that slavery “wasn’t that bad” or that the descendants of slaves are “crybaby whiners”, I will keep remembering and keep hurting. Perhaps a memorial would help people like me put that pain away.
That’s what they said about emancipation. That’s what they said about Civil Rights legislation. That’s what they said about integration of schools. And you know what? They were right, as is Sowell. But black people need to STOP CARING WHAT WHITE PEOPLE THINK. Right is right all day long, whether or not white folks agree with it. And I could give a flying fig what Angry White Person thinks, because he or she will think it regardless. I know this may shock Sowell and his ilk, but white people are not God. We’ve been through the worse of their backlashes and we are strong enough to take more.
We just have to lash back then.
Where was the backlash on the Jews when they put up their museum? How come they can get away so easily with such a production, but a simple memorial–not even a goddamn museum–would result in a race war.
The fact that he thinks this indicates that race relations are very seriously wrong.
Slavery was racially divisive. What does he want? A memorial that shows a rainbow coalition of slaves, of all nationalities and races, struggling against an equally diverse oppressor? Hah. What a load of crock.
I feel that a post of mine at the very end of page 1 is directly on point with Sowell’s new suite of arguments. Since you didn’t respond the first time, december, I’ll assume you didn’t see it; I’m reposting it here.
Responding to Marley, who said:
I said:
Your thoughts, december? What do you think Sowell’s response would be?
grienspace, please. You’re in front of a computer, do a search on Slavery in America. Not being Dick here, but you really have to ‘see’ it for yourself to understand it.
Imagine, looking like a European Dutch person and crossing a state line. Yet because one ancestor 100 years earlier had been an African, you are now a black and a slave. Just like that.
Don’t know. Part of forgiveness is distance. The further away one’s history is from the original sin, the harder it is to have a ‘honest’ negative view on a group of people. The problem is, right now I can see the results of Slavery. I see it everyday and if I can see it, I can only imagine what it must be to live it.
For those who’ve never heard of the Irish Famine Memorial, you can read a bit about it and see some photos here:
http://www.janeholtzkay.com/Articles/hunger.html
As an Irish-American, perhaps I OUGHT to be delighted that a huge memorial has been erected to the suffering of my ancestors… but somehow, I find the whole project somewhat distatsteful. No, I’m NOT saying that the past should be forgotten! The Irish potato famine was of great importance to the histories of both Ireland and the U.S., and it SHOULD be part of school history curricula. And yet, I can’t help thinking that this monument exists precisely BECAUSE so many ethnic groups put so much emphasis on how much they’ve suffered that Irish-Americans started responding “Oh yeah? What about US? WE suffered too. Where’s OUR memorial? The Jews are always talking about the Holocaust, the blacks are always talking about slavery… well, WE didn’t have it so great either!”
And, unfortunately, that’s the mentality that institutions like the Holocaust Museum tend to spawn. School kids who are taken on field trips to the Holocaust Museum MAY come out horrified by human cruelty, and determined to fight anti-semitism. But it’s just as likely they’ll come out thinking, “why do we have to hear about bad things that happened to THEM? My ancestors were ___ (fill in the blank with a host of possibilities: Armenians in Turkey, Japanese-Americans in California during WW2, Cherokees who walked the Trail of Tears, or almost any other ethnic group). THEY suffered, too. Where’s OUR museum? Where’s OUR memorial?”
If you want to see where this mentality leads, look at Toni Morrison’s dedication in the novel “Beloved”: it reads “For the sixty million and more.” That’s supposed to refer to 60 million Africans who died in transit while the slave trade was going on. There is little doubt in my mind that Toni Morrison chose that number (nobody has the slightest idea how many Africans really died in that way during that period) for a very specific reason" because it’s 10 times 6 million (the round number always used for Jews killed during the Holocaust).
All too often, that’s where this type of thinking leads: NOT to new sympathy and understanding, but to one-upsmanship. It’s both absurd and horrible that people should play that game (“my ancestors suffered more than yours!”), but play it they do.
This is a really good point (my emphasis added). The modern mind boggles in thinking of how this was actually incoporated in the constitution. That the founders, brilliant in so many ways, debated this topic and could not bring themselves colelctively to agree that it was simply wrong. I know it is somewhat unfair to judge historical figures by modern standards, but we’re not talking about some pre-scientific medieval culture. These guys were typically well educated, extremely thoughtful individuals who, as TOMNDEB pointed out, who sepcifically set out to design the governmnet based on equality.
There have been dozens of excellent ideas in this thread of what a Slavery Museum could contain. And although we’ve been talking about a memorial vs museum as if it were an either/or situation, there is no reason why a museum could not also contain a memorial. Actuallly, there are good reasons to do so.
Mace, that’s the one thing that people don’t seem to get. That slavery wasn’t just a couple of ‘rich guys’ in Georgia. That Slavery was part of this country’s laws, that deals were make to elect Presidents based on the Slavery issue. That Slavery allowed the country to develope wealth. Yet unlike the other nations listed, only the United States was created and had laws written to prevent this type of thing from occurring.
It is incredible…
How can this not be an important issue to memorialize or built a museum around?
I’m glad you did. I meant to respond, but never got around to it.
This may be true, or it may not. Yes, blacks have been tragically held back by the things you mention. Also, they may have been held back wrong-headed educational methods, a welfare system that broke up families, a Head Start program that fails to provide a head start, and other poorly designed social systems.
But, it’s not automatically true that each of these steps flowed from slavery. The fact that blacks also suffered in states with no history of slavery tends to indicate that slavery, horrible though it was, wasn’t the key factor affecting the condition of black people today.
The words “deserve to be” mean you’re in the realm of victimization. You’re saying that certain social Darwinists (whoever they are) think blacks are not victims, but you think blacks are victims. I think Sowell would respond that it’s counterproductive to dwell on victimhood. In fact, he did say,
What about Martin Luther King Day? That really gives recognition to the entire civil rights movement.
I don’t see where slavery has spread throughout the United States. Surely this argument is overblown.
You’re joking right?
I left out a word. You got me. How’s this:The EFFECTS of slavery. Or the RESULTS of Slavery. OR the LEGACY of Slavery… have spread throughout the United States.
December, are you serious? Geez. It must be nice living in the state of De Nile…any blacks there?
Let me know when you’re ready to get serious.
No, it was racism. We can’t have a memorial for racism seeing as how we haven’t conquered it yet.
What’s this, a commercial for the Republican platform in the middle of a thread?
Gee, december if I didn’t know better, I’d accuse you of being dilerberately obtuse :rolleyes: .
I suspose you’ve forgotten things like polling taxes; segrated fountains, “colored” signs, mandated seating on buses for whites, lynchings, destruction of entire communites of succesful black areas, etc. Many of these protected under by law, until the Civil Rights Act, and requiring aggresive enforcement well into the 70’s. What’s that 30-40 years ago? A single generation! Astounding! Truly astounding!
I thought I’d slip it in and see if anyone noticed.
We had alluded to these things under the general name Jim Crow. I agree with you about how horrible these things were. But, two questions remain:
IMHO there’s no way to answer #1 with any certainty. We can’t re-run history with alternative assumptions.
Regarding #2, Sowell answer’s that a focus on slavery and other victimization distracts black people from taking advantage of real opportunities. He’s not disagreeing that blacks were victimized. He’s addressing how best to produce success now. Do you disagree with him?
I don’t see anything wrong with a memorial or museum for slavery, but it’s not like there isn’t already stuff like that in existence. The Museum of American History, for example, has an exhibit called From Fields to Factory (or something close to that) that provides a good view into the lives of blacks in America during Slavery, Reconstruction and the migration to the industrial cities of the north. There is also the Anacostia Museum & Center for African American History and Culture Branch, which has plenty of good info an the African Diaspora. There’s the Frederick Douglass National Historic Site, which has good info about his anti-slavery efforts.
My point is that DC is not in any way lacking for museums and memorials to slavery and the African-American experience. The proposal for a “memorial on the mall” is just another group trying to get their pet project crammed into the mall.
I think DC or the Fed need to create a new space for all these new museums and memorials and spare the Mall. I like its wide open space and view of Federal buildings. More museums and memorials are just going to degrade that.
I don’t care if it’s a memorial to my sexual prowess, we don’t need it on the Mall…
…of course, the status of my sexual prowess isn’t such that it requires a MEMORIAL, I must hastily add…
I’ll take obvious answers for $300, Alex. The form of slavery in the United States treated black people like chattel. Followed by laws in which black were made into second class citizens. If you can’t see the connection, I can’t help you.
Irrelevant to whether or not there should be a memorial or not. You seem to equate the memorial as some kind of apology, when in fact it’s an acknowledgement. An acknowledgement of our collective history, not just black people.
Why would you infer that I do not believe a black person would not deserve admiration on his own? The rest of your statement supports exactly what I said: you like him because you agree with him, not because he has actually contributed anything of significance to the field where Col would most likely encounter him.
However, you went further and claimed that Col needed to be made aware of this single pundit (out of our thousands of pundits) simply because he is black and you agree with him–exactly the point I made.