Building the Pyramids Today.

You’re a very difficult person to communicate with, MrDibble.

Yes, go back re-read what I said.

“You’re saying that there is no evidence that anything at all was pulverized. Understood”

Thus no mortar, thus no aggregate material to be differentiated from such. We *are *actually saying the same thing despite your insistence otherwise.

Except that’s not even close to what you did. You said, “…wait, so you didn’t find that the sedimentary structures that are said not to exist, actually do exist, “convincing” enough?” And you simply cannot make that inference from anything I said. I didn’t have the time nor inclination to bulletize the entire article, so I picked 2 NEW points which had not been previously made to highlight as compelling evidence.

Again, you assume much. I didn’t miss it. They were simply points that you’d already made. Would it make you feel better if I said, “Hey wow, this article agrees with you on that point that you said it agreed with you on?” I mean this is the intellectual equivalent of me giving you a handjob, but OK, sure … it does. Once again, I quickly culled 2 points from that article that had not previously been made in this thread. Is this a felony or misdemeanor in your universe?

Well I’d say think more like a contractor and less like a geologist. Maybe there’s a odd shape or difficult placement to deal with. Or perhaps a pile of gravel and extra mortar (from the “grouting” hopefully you don’t deny that mortar was indeed used in some fashion) that they just wanted to be rid of?

Regardless, you and Bob have provided enough data to sway me back into the quarried camp. It’s odd that over the years, I’ve seen many publications (without really ever trying to find them) from the caster camp and rarely ever any counter claims from the quarry camp. So it’s likely I’m a victim of the wrong people speaking the loudest.

Being one of the thousands of researchers supporting the boring, ol’ party line won’t get you guest shots on the History Channel. You need to set yourself apart from the herd.

How is that odd? You don’t see a lot of serious publications countering a flat earth theory, either. You used to see them about 9/11 conspiracy theories but not anymore - why go to any additional effort for it? Or for JFK conspiracy theories or moon landing conspiracy theories or anti-Shakespeare conspiracy theories or anything else.

Past a certain point, additional research effort to counter them is itself counter-productive. Why waste the time and effort on people who, for the most part, are not amenable to evidence or reason?

It’s a classic rhetorical technique, “Why can’t we give full, published answers to all the critics?” As many professors would note, they would need entire staffs just to answer the cranks to their satisfaction (and it wouldn’t work in most of those cases anyway), much less get on with their actual work. It’s not worth using 200% of your time (much less not possible) to satisfy the 5% of people who will never accept the evidence.

's funny, others seem to be able to get what I’m saying in this thread just fine.

No, I’m not saying that. I am *certain *things were pulverized. Because that’s what storm surges do. I’m disputing when the pulverization happened and what the agent of pulverization was.

No, I’m pretty sure we’re not. Because you keep using the word mortar, and I keep using the word matrix, and one of these is not like the other. The only time I use mortar is when I’m quoting you.

When you say " Two that I found most convincing", the clear implication is that other points were not as convincing. So of course I can make that inference.

If you didn’t miss it, why didn’t you remark on it…

…oh, that’s why.
It doesn’t work like that, mate. If *you *assert a point:

[/QUOTE]

And I posted a cite that absolutely tears that point to shreds, you do not then get away with “skimming” that cite and *ignoring *the refutation and only focusing on the other bits you like. Especially not when said refutation was previously pointed out to you. That’s not how honest debate works.

No, I’d like you to say “well, looks like*** I was wrong*** about ‘lack of sedimentary structures’”, rather than ignore that that argument was torn apart and continue the Gish Gallop, however temprarily.

No, that’s just honest debate - admitting when you said an obviously factually wrong thing.

It’s just piss-poor debating, ignoring when your points are disproven.
[/quote]

Well I’d say think more like a contractor and less like a geologist. Maybe there’s a odd shape or difficult placement to deal with.
[/quote]

Except the assertion by the Concretists is that perfectly ordinary blocks were made this way.

On the main pyramid structure? Hell, yes, I deny it. There’s no mortar between the main structural blocks, they’re just piled up. That’s how pyramids work.

The internal structures and casings *were *mortared, but it would be a neat trick to have rubble around from the casing before the gross structure was built. Magical, even.

It’s also funny that I’m also able to get what you’re saying just fine. Which is that the microscopic pattern is not consistent with the (artificial) creation of mortar but only that of a naturally formed stone. And that the blocks are more or less homogeneous without any distinction between mortar and aggregate. But I honestly don’t even know what windmill you’re tilting at now.

Dibble, quench your fury for 2 minutes and try to understand that it was very obvious to me and anyone involved here that the article you linked supports your claim on the evidence of sedimentary structure. You said as much, and I simply didn’t feel the need to rehash that. This is not embarrassment speaking. Trust me when I say I really don’t have a dog in this fight. If the paper did not agree with your stance, then I would have mentioned this. But it did, so I didn’t. Instead I opted to bring new pieces of data into the discussion that nobody had yet mentioned. Now you’ve interpreted this as “ignoring” data contrary to one of Davidovits’ primary claims. However if you read everything in context, and accept that the new talking points I tried to pull in also do NOT support Davidovits and DO support the quarry camp then that assertion crumbles. Why would I bring in new data also contrary to the casting camp if my goal was to gloss over another piece of data contrary to the same camp? That just … doesn’t follow.

But somehow you’ve managed to twist that omission into what seems like a personal affront (speaking of piss-poor debating). It certainly wasn’t intended that way. You seem to like to cherry-pick words, so I’ll take this opportunity to point out that quite literally the first thing I said about the article you linked was that, “It does make some very good counter points”. Among which was the evidence of sedimentary structure.

Uhm, I can’t tell if we’re getting into another semantics battle here or what, but your own link states…

“In fact, many interblock spaces are filled with a red gypsum and sand mortar, easily seen on the Khufu”

also makes the point that…

“If the blocks had been poured in place (JD), why the need for mortar between them?”

I did not think the fact that some degree of grouting and/or gap-filling was performed with some mortar substance was up for debate?

Very simple.

The process of building the pyramids, based on the given 20-year timeline and number of blocks, implies installing about a block every 2 minutes each day.

Also - “pulverise” - in this day of power equipment, we forget how much energy is required to do simple construction tasks. Pulverise limestone? Make it into a type of concrete? How? What chemicals did they need to make this concrete? How much fuel?

Then what? It’s a helluva lot easier to drag a big block than to pulverise it to fines, transport that gravel and sand to a new site, and then mix and pour it. in the days before front end loaders, it would all have to be loaded and unloaded by hand in buckets small enough for a man to lift. Remember, this was 1,000 years before the iron age, so the best they’d have would be copper shovels. rock and wood hammers for pulverizing…

What did they use for forms in the days before plywood and wood planers? Why do none of the blocks have an imprint of the wood grain of the molds?
Why would they pour a giant block and then move it? Why not pour in place? At the very least, that would limit the size of the mold - you’d only need 2 or 3 sides, not 4. But then, you couldn’t remove the mold for a while, until the pour hardened. Why pour small blocks? Why don’t the blocks show on the bottom that they’d been poured in place? If you’re mixing enough for a block every 2 minutes, why not pour the entire level (or a significant chunk of it) in one go. Simplifies the forms, for sure. Why not pour complex shapes, instead of building complicated shapes out of simple blocks?

Even 1,000 years later they were using limestone block technology. A portion of the giant temple complex at Luxor has a few columns abandoned due to invasion still under construction - they were assembled from larger, ragged blocks that were then carved smooth in place to get their rounded pillar shape. (Incidentally, also has the remains of a mud ramp for hauling blocks to the top of one of the pylon walls. )

I think in the end Occam’s Razor says it best - the simplest construction is the most likely. They quarried blocks about the limit of what they could transport, and then transported them.

Incidentally - it’s easy to get the fine fit found in those blocks. Before block A goes up the ramp, line up B and make the surfaces between them fit. Then haul A up, repeat with B against C etc. L. Sprague de Camp mentions this in the book Ancient Engineers.

Maybe quote the previous line, too, yes?
If an arguement is to be made that calcite cement formed in cracks in geopolymer stone after construction, then why did calcite not also form in the spaces between adjoining **casing stone **blocks? In fact, many interblock spaces are filled with a red gypsum and sand mortar, easily seen on the Khufu pyramid. If the blocks had been poured in place (JD), why the need for mortar between them?

Gosh, what was that I said earlier? Was it:
The internal structures and **casings **were mortared
? Why yes, I believe it was.

The rest of your post? Quite a lot of verbiage, not a lot of “I was wrong”

Also, once you acknowledge that some blocks were quarried, why not all of them? Given the technology available to the builders, either quarried blocks were easier than concrete, or concrete was easier than quarried blocks. And whichever answer you come up with, why not do the whole pyramid that way? Why use a mix of both kinds?

I should think that if the pyramid was poured concrete, they would have used non-square forms, so that the pyramid would have had a smooth face right out of the box. Of course, in theory the blocks could have been quarried with a miter edge as well.

Well, without getting into the mess above, the reason that the construction was mixed (basically, the great pyramids aren’t solid stone, but stone with rubble fill, especially the interior) is because it’s pretty difficult and unnecessary to construct the inside of a large mega-structure like this precisely. It would take forever. Instead, the interior blocks were rough cut and fill was used to, well, fill the spaces and smooth things out. It’s really only the outer casing stones, especially the very outer casings that were cut and leveled really precisely…well, that and the inner granite chambers and relieving structures inside.

Plus, you had those cold geysers to allow the clean footed Egyptian workers to move large stones to the top without having to break a sweat…

(I’m just kidding, we won’t get into that :p)

Right, but your immediate instinct was to muddy the waters when I said, “hopefully you don’t deny that mortar was indeed used in some fashion”.

Your response was, “Hell, yes, I deny it. There’s no mortar between the main structural blocks, they’re just piled up.”

Except I’d specified no conditions as to how that mortar was used. So then you agreed with me in a sidelong fashion with, “The internal structures and casings were mortared”

You honestly have some personal issues that need to be worked out. :rolleyes: I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone get so twisted up over being agreed with. I’d still love to hear what you think my motivation was for me bringing data into the discussion contradictory to my original position since you’re convinced that it was at that point that was I trying to “ignore” one point of a document which I’d already stated made many good points.

The ancient pyramids are load-bearing masonry construction. Obviously this could be done today much faster and with less labor. The question is using what methods and what are the goals? Lowest cost? Fastest completion? Smallest workforce?

It is further complicated since large-scale load-bearing masonry construction isn’t done anymore. The largest such building is the 548-foot-high Philadelphia City Hall, constructed from 1871 to 1901: Philadelphia City Hall - Wikipedia

Therefore modern mechanization and automation has not been developed for large-scale masonry construction. There was simply no need since other building materials were more efficient. The Empire State Building has a limestone facade and was constructed in about one year. But it’s ultimately a steel building.

If the goal was to build something like the Great Pyramid of Giza in the shortest construction time, lots of preliminary research would be done about methods and materials.

It seems possible that form-poured concrete blocks lifted by several telescopic construction cranes might be the fastest method. Each Giza pyramid block weighed about 2.5 tons. The Liebherr LTM 11200-9.1 can lift 1,200 tons 600 feet high:

To expedite construction time it might be possible to assemble 10 or 20-block groups, have them bound together and positioned by the crane, then remove the binding. Maybe several of the cranes could be used simultaneously, say, one on each face of the pyramid.

It might be possible to use mechanized (maybe robotic) finishing of the poured concrete to achieve highly consistent smooth surfaces. That could allow precise fitting without any mortar.

If this hypothetical task ever happened, it would be thoroughly researched, all possible workflows analyzed, and computer modeled before work began.

There are about 600,000 blocks in the Giza pyramid. If four cranes were used simultaneously, each moving 10 blocks at a time, that’s about 15,000 loads per crane. If each crane could only do one load per hour, that would take 1.7 years to build it.

Apparently, to say *anything *except “I was wrong”

If you were capable of reading without the haze of your egomania clouding everything up for you, you’d see I’d conceded that point and others several times. But no, I will not phrase my reply to your syntactical liking to satiate your epeen. As I said …

I see lots of post of you saying “yes, the article supports what you said” and “the article makes good points” but absolutely no post from you acknowledging, in *any *“syntactical” structure you care to use, that you were wrong. Throwing personal insults my way doesn’t actually change that - this is General Questions, you posted something provably wrong, I supplied the proof it was wrong, you’ve subsequently ducked and weaved to avoid acknowledging that what you posted was wrong. You’re still doing it.

Not that something I said was supported, but that what you said was proven wrong.

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#93

[Moderating]
Let’s make sure to keep this from getting personal, everyone. If you have an issue with another poster’s arguments, address the arguments. If you have an issue with another poster’s motivations, take it to the BBQ Pit.

AFAIK the three large pyramids at Giza were blocks all the way through. There are several later pyramids (most notably the Black Pyramid) that were rubble-filled and guess what’s there now? (Hint: just a mound of rubble). Similarly the very small pyramid of Teti(?) you can still go into the burial chambers, but they sit under a mound of rubble. But… those are much later pyramids from the decline of the old kingdom when they did things quick and cheap - and even then, no pours…

You can see on the smallest of the three main Giza pyramids that the interior is blocks.

Another story I heard is that Yusuf heard there was gold inside the pyramids and decided to go mining. Regardless, there is a very deep gash on one face and what do we see inside…?

…wait for it…

Blocks!

I can’t say I didn’t expect the reveal to be…

…wait for it…

aliens!

I’ve been doing this too long.