# Bull and shit, Arwin. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758 "2005-01-26T14:36:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Nightwatch\_Trailer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9dc877/32.png) [@Nightwatch\_Trailer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nightwatch_Trailer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/21 "2005-01-26T20:52:16Z")
> [@The Devil's Grandmother](#): > > In Eve’s defense, she might (like many other long-time posters) do a vanity search for her name at soon as she logs on. The board doesn’t support three-character searches. ---
**Author:** ![Okaybear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9fc348/32.png) [@Okaybear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okaybear)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/22 "2005-01-26T21:00:47Z")
Whoa, I didn’t think Arwin’s post was anywhere remotely near pitable, and I’m surprised by the amount of heat this is generating. Personally, I agree with Arwin’s sentiments on gender. There’s just way too much emphasis on it. What is the first question people ask when someone’s going to have a baby? _Boy or girl?_ Why can’t I get married to the person of my choosing? _I’m a woman - and so will she be when/if I find her._ I’m not saying that gender isn’t important. I’m saying it’s importance exists strictly because of society’s emphasis on it. Is my gender the result of hormones? I could buy those over the counter. Is my gender the result of my anatomy? What if I were intersexed? (It’s not as small a minority as you might guess - somewhere between 1-2% of the population, if I’m remembering correctly.) Is my gender my chromosomes? What about XO or XXY, or other, variations? Are they male or female, and who gets to decide? Some people just don’t fit the box, including those who wish to change their bodies to match the gender they feel they are. I don’t think Arwin was judging sex-reassignment - just the reasons for why it is _absolutely necessary_ for some people. I believe, in part, that society creates the oppressive system that teaches people they must play the part of MAN or WOMAN. I’m not a transsexual, and I don’t presume to speak for people who are. I do feel like a part of the transgendered community, however, and this is my take on it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/23 "2005-01-26T21:05:14Z")
> [@Nightwatch Trailer](#): > > The board doesn’t support three-character searches. Oh, sorry. It used to. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/24 "2005-01-26T21:17:38Z")
> [@Nightwatch Trailer](#): > > The board doesn’t support three-character searches. Yes, it does. At least, it supports three-character user name searches. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/25 "2005-01-26T21:18:26Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > One reason for this might be that you have to confront this less intensively as a non-trans person than you would have to if you were trans or genderqueer. So only transgendered people have strong gender identities? Non-transgendered people all feel like I do? Or maybe some people have strong gender identities, others have weak. I have a weak one, if any at all. > [@](#): > > Because statements like the one she’s talking about have a direct bearing on _her_ life, as a transsexual woman. It’s not just a difference of taste or of trivial personal experience: people constantly feel free to discuss and question the legitimacy of trans people’s identities, imposing their worldview on the trans people, taking no account of their experience or their perspective. But I wasn’t doing anything like that. I was taking account of her experience and her perspective, affording her all the respect and rights she could possibly want. I just don’t understand her experience, and I would like her to take account of my experience and my perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/26 "2005-01-26T21:19:40Z")
> [@Okaybear](#): > > What is the first question people ask when someone’s going to have a baby? _Boy or girl?_ Yes, and this annoys me no end. It annoys me even more that I more or less have to ask this question myself to be able to refer to the baby since my dumb language has gender-specific pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/27 "2005-01-26T21:25:02Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Yes, it does. At least, it supports three-character user name searches. But does it support them when the poster’s name has only been mentioned in the text of someone else’s post? If I mention **Eve** ’s name in a thread to which she has not posted, will that thread show up if I do a search for her user name? I haven’t tried it yet, but I don’t think that it will. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/28 "2005-01-26T21:28:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But does it support them when the poster’s name has only been mentioned in the text of someone else’s post? If I mention **Eve** ’s name in a thread to which she has not posted, will that thread show up if I do a search for her user name? I haven’t tried it yet, but I don’t think that it will. It won’t. When you search for a mention of the username, it’s treated as any other text search. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/29 "2005-01-26T21:39:23Z")
As for the actual topic of the thread, I think **Arwin** had a point, although he made it extremely poorly. Our society does put too much emphasis on gender identity, as evidenced by the difficulty most transgendered people have getting society to accept them as the gender they feel is most important. If our society placed less emphasis on it, **Strangelove** ’s friend in the other thread would likely have not been terrified that he would lose those closest to him (or possibly her) over the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/30 "2005-01-26T21:41:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > As for the actual topic of the thread, I think **Arwin** had a point, although he made it extremely poorly. Our society does put too much emphasis on gender identity, as evidenced by the difficulty most transgendered people have getting society to accept them as the gender they feel is most important. If our society placed less emphasis on it, **Strangelove** ’s friend in the other thread would likely have not been terrified that he would lose those closest to him (or possibly her) over the issue. Or those who are transgendered wouldn’t have to dress extremely masculine or feminine to prove that they are transgendered. Or people wouldn’t bitch that how can a MtF call herself a lesbian. ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/31 "2005-01-26T21:46:11Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Yes, and this annoys me no end. It annoys me even more that I more or less have to ask this question myself to be able to refer to the baby since my dumb language has gender-specific pronouns. Personally, I think “den” is a perfectly lovely gender-neutral pronoun, or should be. I’ve been working on expanding its uses in my personal language, and I haven’t weirded anyone out with it, yet (but then, I haven’t referred to a specific person by it so far). ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/32 "2005-01-26T21:46:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Or those who are transgendered wouldn’t have to dress extremely masculine or feminine to prove that they are transgendered. Or they wouldn’t have to prove that at all. > [@](#): > > Or people wouldn’t bitch that how can a MtF call herself a lesbian. Or no-one would care, and that word wouldn’t need to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/33 "2005-01-26T21:48:15Z")
> [@Sofis](#): > > Personally, I think “den” is a perfectly lovely gender-neutral pronoun, or should be. I think it sounds really mechanical, like you’re talking about a bicycle or something. > [@](#): > > I’ve been working on expanding its uses in my personal language, and I haven’t weirded anyone out with it, yet (but then, I haven’t referred to a specific person by it so far). Well, then you haven’t really tested it, have you? Sooooo… you Swedish or what? ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2005, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/34 "2005-01-26T22:05:53Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > I think it sounds really mechanical, like you’re talking about a bicycle or something. A bit, yes, but I don’t think it’s too bad. Just a question of being unused to the usage. It’s certainly nowhere near as bad as “det”. The main motivation for using it, though, is that I _want_ there to be a gender-neutral third person singular pronoun, and “den” seems like the best candidate. If it’s not good enough, I’ll make it good enough. Maybe in using it, I will influence others to do likewise, and thus spark widespread lingual change. Probably more likely, people will just think I’m weird. But I’m not giving up without trying. > [@Priceguy](#): > > Well, then you haven’t really tested it, have you? I have used it to describe an unspecific person, though (“Om en kirurg ska utföra en operation, så bör den använda handskar.”) which is certainly outside the standard usage. One step at a time, you know. Need to get myself used to it before I make other people get used to it. > [@Priceguy](#): > > Sooooo… you Swedish or what? Yeah. My location line indicates as much, though in an extremely obscure manner :). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/35 "2005-01-27T00:00:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But does it support them when the poster’s name has only been mentioned in the text of someone else’s post? If I mention **Eve** ’s name in a thread to which she has not posted, will that thread show up if I do a search for her user name? I haven’t tried it yet, but I don’t think that it will. I, on the other hand, am happy to sacrifice my employer’s electrons for the betterment of humanity. So, to test the theory, I placed a post containing Eve’s name into a thread she has not posted to. I then went to advanced search and searched for “Eve” under User Name. The thread did not appear in the list. So I went and searched for “Eve” and got rejected for a too short search term. I then searched for "Eve " with an extra space hoping to fool the hamsters. They were not amused. So I searched for “Eve AND book”. The threads returned had Book highlighted in red letters but not Eve. Other words containing the character set “eve”, such as steve or whatever, were also un-highlighted. In my haste, I did not find a thread that did contain book but _not_ any form of eve. Conclusion: text search will not search for three letter words and will not inform you of the fact. Just to be sure, I searched for my user name as text “Devil’s AND Grandmother”. I got no matches, perhaps the hamsters are tired. So yes, I was completely wrong in my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/36 "2005-01-27T02:52:00Z")
**Arwin** seems to have confused gender roles with gender identity. I sew (and am thinking of taking up knitting). I am a better cook than Mom. I have no interest in professional sports. In our society, all these behaviors are associated with the role of women. But, I’m a man. I’m pretty happy about being a man too. If I were to wake up with the body of a woman, I would be extremely upset. My gender identity isn’t based on doing things I think men are supposed to do. It’s just who I am. Below are two of the previous posts in which I’ve given cites that the human brain is gender dimorphic. No amount of ‘breaking gender boundaries’ will change the adult stria terminalis. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5693635&postcount=71](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5693635&postcount=71) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5698244&postcount=107](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5698244&postcount=107) Re **Eve** I can recall exactly one other occasion in which she said ‘I’m through trying to teach you. I’m out of here.’ I’m rather frustrated myself. I don’t know how many times I or somebody else has linked to studies of the stria terminalis. But posters continue saying ‘it’s just a mental illness’ and ‘because I don’t understand it, it doesn’t exist’ and ‘It’s really caused by culture’ HOW MANY FUCKING TIMES DO THESE STUDIES HAVE TO BE POSTED? IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY RESEARCH GENDER DYSPHORIA BEFORE TELLING US ALL ‘WHAT THE REAL PROBLEM IS’? I’ve seen ignorance fought on this board. But whenever there is a thread about transsexuals, it feels like I’m beating my head against the same damn wall as when I first joined. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/37 "2005-01-27T02:57:27Z")
I forgot to mention why **Eve** would read these threads. Because, there’s always the hope that after years of GD threads, people will have actually learned something. Instead, we see the same damn wall. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/38 "2005-01-27T02:59:48Z")
> [@Priceguy](#): > > Or they wouldn’t have to prove that at all. Perhaps they WANT to prove it. Perhaps they WANT to identify strongly with the opposite gender. Jesus. I am female and luckily I was born with the right body. And dammit, I am very much a “girly-girl.” But even so, someone may not care about gender roles, but they may care about identity. Shit. **DocCathode** , just out of curiosity, how did you become so interested in the topic? No offense, and I’m not saying it’s strange or wrong, just that you know a lot about gender dysphoria, and to my knowledge, you’re not transgendered. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/39 "2005-01-27T03:25:41Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **DocCathode** , just out of curiosity, how did you become so interested in the topic? No offense, and I’m not saying it’s strange or wrong, just that you know a lot about gender dysphoria, and to my knowledge, you’re not transgendered. It is strange, which is how I first became interested in it. As a kid, I liked to read about strange things-the paranormal, UFOs, as well as those things which unquestionably existed but didn’t fit standard classification. Transsexuals and the intersexed were part of the last one. It was scientifically fascinating, and often heartbreaking. Then, during a sojourn at the funny farm, I had a series of chats with a woman. She was there because her parents refused to accept her gender identity (despite her having been born with ambiguous genitalia). Mom and dad insisted that they had a son. They found psychiatrists who agreed and tried to ‘cure’ her. With hormone therapy, and some corrective surgery, they would have had a fine daughter. Instead, years of counseling, medication, and living in mental hospitals had produced a woman with massive fear of crowds, strangers, suicidal depression, and the other problems you’d expect when the people who are supposed to love and protect you subject you to years of torture. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758/40 "2005-01-27T03:28:09Z")
Ouch. Poor thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bull-and-shit-arwin/286758.md?page=3)