# Bullets as a metaphor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537 "2011-07-27T20:18:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/1 "2011-07-27T20:18:34Z")
[Via YouTube, Steny Hoyer](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIRwsrGPu7k): > [@](#): > > I think we’re playing Russian roulette with the nation’s credit-worthiness. Unfortunately, all the chambers seem to be loaded on the House side. They want to shoot every bullet they have at the president. In the immediate wake of the Tuscon shooting, it seemed (for a couple of days, anyway) that there was on this board some fairly wide-spread agreement that bullets as metaphors produced a dangerous climate. I’m just wondering if anyone who subscribed to that philosophy wishes to review it. In my view, of course, Congressman Hoyer’s remarks are … well… unremarkable. His use of a metaphor is obvious. He’s not remotely suggesting anyone is using, or should use, actual firearms. He’s saying that House Republicans are risking the safety of the nation’s economy in an effort to injure the President’s political standing and electibility. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/2 "2011-07-27T20:21:35Z")
As a metaphor, it’s pretty much mangled. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/3 "2011-07-27T20:21:50Z")
As a metaphor, it’s pretty much mangled. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/4 "2011-07-27T20:25:08Z")
Woah…deja vu… (I think there was a slip in the Matrix) -XT ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/5 "2011-07-27T20:27:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > As a metaphor, it’s pretty much mangled. Double tap. ETA: there were two posts by Czarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/6 "2011-07-27T20:29:10Z")
I don’t think there was agreement that all firearms based metaphors are dangerous, just the ones that identified particular politicians, and used firearm metaphors to describe defeating them. This is completely different than using a metaphor to describe your opponents as being irresponsible with firearms. Also, as Czarcasm mentioned, the metaphor is a mess. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/7 "2011-07-27T20:30:51Z")
Yup. Agreed with **Cheese** and **Czarcasm**. The metaphor is not urging the targeting of politicians but rather describing the actions of the opposition. And it’s rather mixed at that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/8 "2011-07-27T20:32:36Z")
Ah, a **Bricker** gotcha attempt. No, the cases are entirely different because the American Right has been pretty openly threatening and occasionally using violence against its opponents for years, and the American Left hasn’t. The Right doesn’t mean it as a metaphor, they mean it as a threat and an incitement. If they could get away with it, they’d be forming and sending out death squads right now. Instead, they whip up the fanatics until some get violent, and make a public show of being sorry when some actually go out and kill people. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/9 "2011-07-27T21:28:14Z")
There is a BIG difference between the OP quote and the following (and I am pretty sure the OP is smart enough to see the distinction): > [@](#): > > “Our Founding Fathers, they put that Second Amendment in there for a good reason, and that was for the people to protect themselves against a tyrannical government,” Angle told conservative talk show host Lars Larson in January. “In fact, Thomas Jefferson said it’s good for a country to have a revolution every 20 years. I hope that’s not where we’re going, but you know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies.” > > Also that month, she told Reno conservative talk show host Bill Manders she hoped Reid would be defeated at the ballot box before the electorate resorted to more aggressive measures. > > “I’m hoping that we’re not getting to Second Amendment remedies,” Angle said. “I hope that the vote will be the cure for the Harry Reid problems.” > > And last month she told the Reno Gazette-Journal “it’s almost an imperative” that conservatives win. > > “The nation is arming,” she told the newspaper. “What are they arming for if it isn’t that they are so distrustful of their government? They’re afraid they’ll have to fight for their liberty in more Second Amendment kinds of ways. That’s why I look at this as almost an imperative. If we don’t win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?” > > SOURCE: [http://www.scrippsnews.com/content/nev-senate-hopeful-sharron-angle-talks-armed-revolt](http://www.scrippsnews.com/content/nev-senate-hopeful-sharron-angle-talks-armed-revolt) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/10 "2011-07-27T21:53:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Ah, a **Bricker** gotcha attempt. > > No, the cases are entirely different because the American Right has been pretty openly threatening and occasionally using violence against its opponents for years, and the American Left hasn’t. The Right doesn’t mean it as a metaphor, they mean it as a threat and an incitement. If they could get away with it, they’d be forming and sending out death squads right now. Instead, they whip up the fanatics until some get violent, and make a public show of being sorry when some actually go out and kill people. But of course… they actually haven’t. And it’s within my living memory that the American Left was using actual violence to accomplish political goals, from university bombings to protest war to disrupting political conventions in order to make their views heard, ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/11 "2011-07-27T21:55:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The Right doesn’t mean it as a metaphor, they mean it as a threat and an incitement. If they could get away with it, they’d be forming and sending out death squads right now. 😕 Where do you get this stuff? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/12 "2011-07-27T21:57:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > There is a BIG difference between the OP quote and the following (and I am pretty sure the OP is smart enough to see the distinction): I agree there’s a fair line to be drawn between the quote you offer and the one I refer to. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/13 "2011-07-27T22:01:45Z")
I can’t even figure out what the metaphor is supposed to mean, let alone whether it’s appropriate. When you’re playing Russian Roulette, you’re not shooting the bullets at someone else, and you’re not shooting multiple bullets. If anything, I’d think “They’re playing Russian Roulette, and all the chambers are loaded on the House side” would mean that the House is committing suicide. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/14 "2011-07-27T22:02:08Z")
Yes, the metaphor police should arrest Reid and charge him with a felony for that one! But it’s not the same as the rhetoric we were talking about earlier. This is not using gun/violence imagery against your political opponents and thus, allegedly, inciting your supporters to violence. Unless the OP thinks Reid is inciting the GOP to commit acts of violence against Obama… On re-reading the quote, it’s even worse than I originally thought. Life without the possibility of parole!! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/15 "2011-07-27T22:14:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But of course… they actually haven’t. Oh, please. Tell that to the people killed by anti-abortion fanatics. Or the people who died in the Oklahoma City Bombing. Or gays beaten to death by right wing thugs. And all the other people harmed by the right wing thuggery and terror tactics across the country. Including the people threatened or attacked during the wave of right wing violence that occurred at the same time as Giffords was shot. > [@Bricker](#): > > And it’s within my living memory that the American Left was using actual violence to accomplish political goals, from university bombings to protest war to disrupting political conventions in order to make their views heard, And within living memory Russia was head of the Soviet Union and poised to nuke us. Things change. And the violence of the Left in this country was and always exaggerated and treated more harshly than the violence from the Right. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/16 "2011-07-27T22:44:31Z")
There’s a world of metaphorical difference between saying you’re being shot at and saying you should be shooting others. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/17 "2011-07-27T23:12:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the immediate wake of the Tuscon shooting, it seemed (for a couple of days, anyway) that there was on this board some fairly wide-spread agreement that bullets as metaphors produced a dangerous climate. > > I’m just wondering if anyone who subscribed to that philosophy wishes to review it. I haven’t addressed this issue before, but I’m willing to go on record as saying that if the Metaphor Police shot Mr. Hoyer full of disdainful rhetoric, it would be justifiable self-defense. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Ah, a Bricker gotcha attempt. While the _tu quoque_ fallacy is common enough, the classic **Bricker** pseudo-debate gotcha is where he announces a decision by a court or other official entity that agrees with an opinion of his and which is intended to stun opponents into admitting that they were wrong, seeing as how a ruling issued by a public official is the Revealed Truth, unless it’s the 1973 Supreme Court decision on abortion rights or something else that **Bricker** does not like. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/18 "2011-07-27T23:26:13Z")
The objections are valid–the metaphor is mangled, and to the extent that it’s comprehensible, it’s not comparable in form or tone to Palin’s gunsight hit list, for example. Still, I’ll throw **Bricker** a small bone: I think references to shooting at the President, as rhetorical device, and even as a characterization of opponents, are indeed unwise and tasteless. Particularly in the political climate we’ve had for the last several years. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/19 "2011-07-27T23:49:07Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Still, I’ll throw **Bricker** a small bone: I think references to shooting at the President, as rhetorical device, and even as a characterization of opponents, are indeed unwise and tasteless. Particularly in the political climate we’ve had for the last several years. More than just a few years. I recall some Republican Congressperson or other making comments about how Clinton would be in danger of getting shot if he came to their home state. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2011, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537/20 "2011-07-27T23:52:38Z")
The metaphor is a mangled mess, and I honestly can’t quite parse it. Nonetheless, violent gun-based rhetoric has no place in the political discourse. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullets-as-a-metaphor/590537.md?page=2)