# "Bullies have low self esteem" -The theory that came from nowhere & yet became social science dogma **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 26, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618 "2009-09-26T03:11:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/21 "2009-09-28T16:36:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I also disagree with your experience.😃 It’s possible to have more than one cause, and thus two different, but equally valid, observations. Both parents who are far too strict, belittling and beating their children, and parents who are too loose, not providing guidance and rules for the children, are **bad parents who fail to adequatly raise their children**. One of the things they fail is to give the children an **adquate** sense of self-worth and self-esteem. Children who are beaten think that whatever they do, they fail, so they may turn angy and resort to only beating. Children who are spoiled or ignored miss opportunities to experience that feeling of accomplishment when finishing a difficult task. They get what they want, so they believe that they have a right to take what they want. Whenever dealing with extremes, the correct answer is not the opposite extreme, but the middle. Or, as J.K. Rowling said before her last book came out, when talking about the Dursleys: “there are two abused children in that household” = spoiling Dudley is also a form of child abuse. > [@](#): > > Well, I disagree with the hypothesis your experience has produced. I believe bullies are somehow instilled with a greater sense of ambition and they discovery that they can fulfill their ambitions through aggressive behavior. I don’t think “ambition” is the right word here. Rather, it’s the short wait time. They learned that a bit of whining will get them what they want. If they were ambitious and ever were given the chance to experience that working hard and taking the right steps toward that goal, that they can reach it. That would be the correct way of channeling ambition. I wonder how much it has to do also with society in general, not only the parents. If you look around, you see CEOs making ff with milliions even when their companies are crashing, or simply stealing the money; they see states attacking other countries to take what they want; so why not assume that “might makes right” and take what you want by force? > [@](#): > > It seems to me that people who have been bullied all their life tend to become a pathetic shell of a person or angry and resentful at all forms of power or authority, not a bully. Sadly, this is not completly true. Rather, it seems to be some basic character setting on how to people react to abuse: some people become broken and quiet and sympathetic, and avoid all forms of aggression because they know how bad it feels; other people conclude they can only rely on themselves, and that the only way to get ahead and protect themselves is to hit first. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/22 "2009-09-28T17:04:03Z")
I don’t think (male) bullies have a low self esteem. I think they have a low empathy for their fellow men, very similar to sociopaths. People with a low self esteem tend to shy away from interpersonal interactions, bullies on the other hand tend to seek out chances to bully. Bullies aren’t necessarily smarter or dumber, or more or less damaged by their home life, they are just bullies because they enjoy causing pain to others. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/23 "2009-09-28T17:08:45Z")
I think narcissism and sadism are far more prevalent among bullies than low self-esteem. Another bullshit meme is that bullies are “cowards” who will be intimidated by anyone who stands up to them. Not true in the slightest. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/24 "2009-09-28T17:23:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Another bullshit meme is that bullies are “cowards” who will be intimidated by anyone who stands up to them. Not true in the slightest. Again, not what I’ve witnessed at all. I’m thinking of the bullies I knew growing up (I went to the same school for most of my school years so I got to know a few of them pretty well and, sadly, I have a few in my family.) They pretty much universally back down when confronted by someone who could pose an actual challenge. I’ve seen bullies fight, but I have never seen them pick or even accept a fight with someone who had a remote chance of competing. They’re not going to be intimidated by the 98lb weakling who stands up to them, but they sure as hell aren’t going to fuck with the guy their size or larger who stands up to them. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/25 "2009-09-28T17:45:08Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Again, not what I’ve witnessed at all. Sure it is. Don’t you remember? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/26 "2009-09-28T18:00:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Another bullshit meme is that bullies are “cowards” who will be intimidated by > anyone who stands up to them. Not true in the slightest. Bullies don’t want to fight you. They want to beat you up, intimidate you or otherwise push you around. So they will typically single out weaker or more timid kids who they think won’t fight back. Or they will goad someone who they think won’t fight back for whatever reason. My general experience, however, has been the more you stand up to them, the more likely they will think you are too much trouble and move on to an easier target. It does help go to the gym or learn how to box or something so you actually CAN defend yourself. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/27 "2009-09-28T18:01:20Z")
I think bullies have found an effective strategy that works for them. There isn’t anything “wrong” with them other than the fact that the rest of us don’t like their strategy. When they get older bullies may have to try other means to get what they want, maybe they will learn to not bully or maybe they will go on to petty (and not so petty) crime, but in kids bullying is a rewarding pastime with very little downside. As adults we know that bullying is not a good long-term life strategy, in general, but that will have very little meaning to a 13 year old with a pocket full of other peoples lunch money and the respect and/or fear of all those around him. If we all continue to believe there is something wrong with the bullies we’re never going to find a solution. Not that I have a solution other than to make my own kids strong enough to not be the target. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/28 "2009-09-28T18:03:42Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Sure it is. Don’t you remember? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/29 "2009-09-28T18:10:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > People always say someone’s “overcompensating” if he has certain things. A guy with guns is, naturally, overcompensating for his tiny penis. Likewise for a man who has a sports car, a muscle car or a large truck. Bodybuilders and weightlifters, of course, also have tiny dicks (and are also overcompensating for the fact that they’re homosexual by trying to be super-manly.) This is how a lot of people, including people here, seem to operate. > > I think they’re probably just **jealous,** and this “overcompensation” shtick is their way of feeling smugly superior. Yeah, just liking something doesn’t make you an over compensator. I do wonder about riding around constantly with a 90dB motorcycle. Is this also possibly just keyed to the need for “respect” and a real need for approval of others? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/30 "2009-09-28T21:05:56Z")
> [@astro](#): > > In another thread poster [Manwich](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11598268&postcount=7) provided a link to an [interesting paper](http://www.sju.edu/academics/centers/ivrp/pdf/Baumeister.pdf)that discussed the development of theories of why people bully. On it’s face the classic, now more of less debunked, notion that bullies bullied not out of the simple enjoyment of terrorizing and dominating their weaker peers, but rather out of a low sense of self esteem. > > This is, on it’s face, common-sensically absurd as most anyone who has been bullied can attest to, bullies have _tons_ of esteem, but it was psychological and social dogma for some time that this silly notion was received wisdom. I sincerely hope that we’re witnessing not only the end of this particular bit of nonsense, but the demise of the entire self-esteem movement. As **picunurse** mentioned, there’s adequate evidence to rebut the central idea that we can boost kids’ achievement by unearned praise. American children rank first in the world in self esteem, but close to last in the industrialized world in academics. ([So says this book.](http://www.amazon.com/Narcissism-Epidemic-Living-Age-Entitlement/dp/1416575987/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254171789&sr=1-1)) The whole idea behind the self-esteem movement was pretty ridiculous to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/31 "2009-09-28T21:07:52Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I sincerely hope that we’re witnessing not only the end of this particular bit of nonsense, but the demise of the entire self-esteem movement. As **picunurse** mentioned, there’s adequate evidence to rebut the central idea that we can boost kids’ achievement by unearned praise. American children rank first in the world in self esteem, but close to last in the industrialized world in academics. ([So says this book.](http://www.amazon.com/Narcissism-Epidemic-Living-Age-Entitlement/dp/1416575987/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254171789&sr=1-1)) The whole idea behind the self-esteem movement was pretty ridiculous to begin with. I don’t know what the self-esteem movement is or was. Is it related to teachers not being able to use red pens anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/32 "2009-09-28T21:16:39Z")
My opinion is that bullies simply _enjoy_ inflicting pain and humiliation on others. Some bullies may be stupid and cowardly; others may be smart and brave. What they all share is a lack of whatever concience or sense of empathy that prevents non-bullies from exploiting others’ weaknesses for their own pleasure. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/33 "2009-09-30T14:10:46Z")
There are of course the sadistic people, too, or those who just haven’t had empathy imparted to them. My mom eventually bit one of the kids in the church nursery because she became convinced he didn’t understand that it hurt. He just enjoyed the commotion after he did it. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/34 "2009-09-30T17:49:08Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > I think bullies have found an effective strategy that works for them. There isn’t anything “wrong” with them other than the fact that the rest of us don’t like their strategy. When they get older bullies may have to try other means to get what they want, maybe they will learn to not bully or maybe they will go on to petty (and not so petty) crime, but in kids bullying is a rewarding pastime with very little downside. > > As adults we know that bullying is not a good long-term life strategy, in general, but that will have very little meaning to a 13 year old with a pocket full of other peoples lunch money and the respect and/or fear of all those around him. If we all continue to believe there is something wrong with the bullies we’re never going to find a solution. Not that I have a solution other than to make my own kids strong enough to not be the target. Actually there are plenty of jobs that reward social dominance and aggression. The bullies may have to retrain a little but the basic skills and worldview can remain intact. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618/35 "2009-09-30T17:53:03Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > People always say someone’s “overcompensating” if he has certain things. A guy with guns is, naturally, overcompensating for his tiny penis. Likewise for a man who has a sports car, a muscle car or a large truck. Bodybuilders and weightlifters, of course, also have tiny dicks (and are also overcompensating for the fact that they’re homosexual by trying to be super-manly.) This is how a lot of people, including people here, seem to operate. > > I think they’re probably just **jealous,** and this “overcompensation” shtick is their way of feeling smugly superior. So would you say their derision and verbal abuse of these behaviors is caused by low self-esteem? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullies-have-low-self-esteem-the-theory-that-came-from-nowhere-yet-became-social-science-dogma/511618.md?page=1)