# Bullshit history that turned out to be true **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541 "2021-07-02T21:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/209 "2021-07-07T18:06:25Z")
Missing the point again, if Lucille ball had their career terminated, when it was clear that she was not a communist anymore as she was an entrepreneur by then, [then there would be no Star Trek.](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lucille_Ball) 🙂 BTW nowhere I did say that there were no communists; the point I made, besides the one of not all of them being spies, that the rights of most of the ones accused were also abused, does stand. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/210 "2021-07-07T19:28:39Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Uh, the other poster did: he said that the left in America had the mantra that “communist spying didn’t exist” That was indeed the main argument that was done then by guys like McCarthy, communist = traitor = spy. ZosterSandstorm? Care to quote him? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/211 "2021-07-07T23:15:08Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > ZosterSandstorm? Care to quote him? I did already. And besides, I will not continue with this side discussion as this is not GD or Politics. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2021, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/212 "2021-07-07T23:39:22Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The point was that they were not spies, as I said that one being a communist in America was not equal to being a spy or traitor, that bit is what the abuse of power was referring to Because of the pressure on their members in places like the USA, the Russians decided and announced that party members would not be recruited as spies. But then they found that they were not able to recruit spies. So, without formally renouncing their position, they continued to recruit spies mainly from secret party members. This lead to the situation where, if you were a communist sympathizer, the assertion that communist party members were spies, was ludicrous, dishonest, and contrary to known fact. And where, if you were an adversary, the assertion that communist party members were not spies was ludicrous, dishonest, and contrary to known fact. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/213 "2021-07-08T03:33:16Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Standard US teaching is that that the War of 1812 was a draw. I believe this was mainly because the final treaty had the status of everything revert to the pre-war state. Neither side gained or lost anything. Not really. Before then American sailors were captured and pressed into service regularly in the British navy as their law allowed all British citizens to be so. Americans in 1812 were mostly ‘born’ British or considered so and so they did this with impunity especially since it rankled an old enemy and incurred no adverse reactions from a British public. The war changed that. The War of 1812 galvanized the US as a nation and voiced the command of respect worldwide. That particular shit stopped after that…until the Barbary Coast tested us and they also got to see what happens. I learned all this first in high school. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/214 "2021-07-08T03:54:29Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > > [@dtilque](#): > > > > Standard US teaching is that that the War of 1812 was a draw. I believe this was mainly because the final treaty had the status of everything revert to the pre-war state. Neither side gained or lost anything. > > Not really. When I posted that, I was mostly considering territorial status. The cessation of pressing sailors was a less tangible result, but as I believe someone pointed out upthread, the main reason they stopped was because the Royal Navy no longer needed so many ships and thus many fewer sailors. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/215 "2021-07-08T04:24:52Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Before then American sailors were captured and pressed into service regularly in the British navy as their law allowed all British citizens to be so. Americans in 1812 were mostly ‘born’ British or considered so and so they did this with impunity especially since it rankled an old enemy and incurred no adverse reactions from a British public The British navy was allowed to look for deserters wherever they found them and re-impress them. in those days, many of the men who worked as common seamen didn’t read or write, had no proof of citizenship or birth, would have difficulty knowing or proving their age and place of birth, so the Brits simply said “we think you’re a deserter, come with us” to the less educated seamen when they stopped an American ship. I suppose too that the end of the Napoleonic War did reduce the need for fresh recruits. Plus, by 1815 a “deserter” would have to be 41 years old, assuming they started as a sailor at age 10. It was a hard life, and it was probably getting harder to find sailors on American ships that were born in England (or sounded like it). > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > Even [Angola](https://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?country=ao&commodity=wheat&graph=production) and [Mozambique](https://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?country=mz&commodity=wheat&graph=production) grow wheat. > > It seems plausible that a ship with a crew of 20-30 (?) could find a quiet spot near the coast of any of these countries and grow a few acres of wheat for themselves. I imagine most of those locales are deserted now (and then) for a reason. Climate and lack of arable land is a most likely reason. > [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > The fall of the Mayan civilization was probably due mostly to conquest by the Aztecs > > You might want to check the timing on when the Classic Mayan “Collapse” happened, vs the Aztecs even existing. What I’ve read about the Mayan collapse indicated it was ecological also possibly due to climate. Crops failed, irrigation canals silted up, the area descended into warfare, cities were abandoned, and the whole region was re-covered by jungle; several centuries before the Aztec hit their peak. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/216 "2021-07-08T04:27:18Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Not really. > > Before then American sailors were captured and pressed into service regularly in the British navy as their law allowed all British citizens to be so. Americans in 1812 were mostly ‘born’ British or considered so and so they did this with impunity especially since it rankled an old enemy and incurred no adverse reactions from a British public. > > The war changed that. The War of 1812 galvanized the US as a nation and voiced the command of respect worldwide. That particular shit stopped after that… Not really, really. The British repealed the Orders-in-Council at the same time as the US declared war. It wasn’t because the British no longer needed sailors; the wars with Napoleon continued until 1814, then the 100 days in 1815. Even after the US learnt that the OCs had been repealed, they continued with the war. So although the pressing of sailors may have triggered the declaration of war, it cannot be pointed to as the reason the war continued, nor were the British forced to repeal them as a peace term at the end of the war. > [@](#): > > ## Repeal of the Orders in Council[[edit](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Orders_in_Council_(1807)&action=edit§ion=4)] > > The British made their greatest concession to the United States in June 1812. On 16 June 1812, two days before the United States declaration of war, [Lord Castlereagh](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Stewart,_Viscount_Castlereagh), the [Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_of_State_for_Foreign_Affairs) announced in [Parliament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament_of_the_United_Kingdom) that the Order in Council would be suspended.[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_in_Council_(1807)#cite_note-2) > > On the very day that the Minister took his formal leave from the United States[_[clarification needed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Please_clarify)_ ], 23 June 1812, a new British Government headed by [Lord Liverpool](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Liverpool) provisionally repealed the Order in Council.[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_in_Council_(1807)#cite_note-3) > > Forty-one days after the [United States Congress](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress) declared war, the news reached London on 29 July 1812. Two days later, the Ministry ordered its first counter-measures. It forbade British ships to sail except in convoys, and restrained American ships in British ports. The Orders in Council had been repealed on 23 June 1812, but the ministers did not intend to take additional measures until they could learn the American reaction. Word of the repeal of the Orders did not reach [President James Madison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Madison) until 12 August 1812, some fifty days later. Even then he refused to halt hostilities because he did not know how Britain had reacted to the declaration of war.[[4]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_in_Council_(1807)#cite_note-4) ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/218 "2021-07-08T09:00:55Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I say a lot about it in my webpage on Atlantis – You certainly do. What a (presumably) thorough look at the origin of the Atlantean myth and it’s prominence in literature. I found it very interesting. Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/219 "2021-07-08T12:38:00Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > There are “expanders” who think that the continent’s shapes are complimentary as a result of the earth expanding. When I was a kid I had a science book that explained the dynamics of the continents as a result of _shrinking_, rather than expanding. It likened the mountains to the wrinkles of the skin of an aging, shrinking apple. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/220 "2021-07-08T12:41:21Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > What a (presumably) thorough look at the origin of the Atlantean myth and it’s prominence in literature. I found it very interesting. Thank you! Thank _you_ very much for the compliment. The impetus for that page was (as you can probably guess) my dissatisfaction with the George Pal movie and my trying to understand How It Got That Way. Along the way, I looked into a lot of the History of Atlantis. It’s not thorough. I don’t think anyone has yet written thorough history of Atlantis in Wester Culture. It’d be really long and cover a lot of forgotten literature. Even L. Sprague de Camp’s _Lost Continents_ simply lists a lot of cases in its appendix, rather than considering them at length. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/221 "2021-07-08T13:05:55Z")
It’s also greatly exaggerated: post-Classic Maya civilization also involved large cities (see Mayapan), monumental architecture, and a continuous cultural tradition. The Maya resisted Spanish conquest for centuries and continue to exist as a people despite consistent attempts at eradication (see Caste Wars in Mexico; the entire history of Guatamala). Today, nearly half of Guatamalans speak a Maya language as their native language. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/222 "2021-07-08T13:23:39Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > You certainly do. > What a (presumably) thorough look at the origin of the Atlantean myth and it’s prominence in literature. I found it very interesting. Thank you! @CalMeacham’s hobby is to take some odd little corner of historical scholarship, research it until he’s the foremost expert in the world, and then write about it. Pick some new topic, and repeat. He’s done the same thing for Medusa and the history of ray guns in science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/223 "2021-07-08T14:41:26Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > There was the “urban legend” about the Newlywed Game contestant who answered “where is the weirdest place you’ve ever made whoopee” with “That would be in the butt, Bob” … which turned out to not be an urban legend. (At most, it was a not quite verbatim recollection of how she phrased it, but clearly the footage is of the event that people recalled). [Except, not.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiARvvemLlk) The reply was “[giggle] I dunno…was it in the ass?” And it was never broadcast. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/224 "2021-07-08T15:31:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > @CalMeacham’s hobby is to take some odd little corner of historical scholarship, research it until he’s the foremost expert in the world, and then write about it. Pick some new topic, and repeat. What a nice way of putting it. Only I doubt if I achieved “foremost expert in the world” status (that’s what you do when writing a PhD thesis). But i do find out a lotta stuff. I did it recently with the Wonderland amusement park near Boston. I’m working on another Massachusetts amusement park right now, and on the wildest history of a submarine I’ve ever come across, along with one other project. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/225 "2021-07-08T15:56:12Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It’s also greatly exaggerated Hence the quotes I put around “Collapse”. But the context I was replying to, with its " several centuries before the conquistadors arrived" framing, makes it clear that was what was being referred to, and while not final, it was definitely still something that happened. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2021, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/226 "2021-07-08T17:24:45Z")
I responded to @md-2000 because I was expanding on your point to him. So my response should be read as speaking to his comment. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2021, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/227 "2021-07-13T01:46:16Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Missing the point again, if Lucille ball had their career terminated, when it was clear that she was not a communist anymore as she was an entrepreneur by then, [then there would be no Star Trek.](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Lucille_Ball) 🙂 And with no Star Trek Obama would never been elected to the Senate. Wheels within wheels , and all. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2021, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/228 "2021-07-22T13:24:59Z")
One of the issues with how we as Americans teach American History is that we center ourselves in it. If sailors were no longer being pressed, it was obviously our glorious behavior in war and stunning diplomacy. The reality that Early American History is a footnote to the events happening in Europe and our history is as much a consequence of developments that have nothing to do with us is somewhat more humbling. ---
**Author:** ![ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chockfullofheadygoodness/32/511_2.png) [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2021, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/229 "2021-07-22T21:40:22Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > The reality that Early American History is a footnote to the events happening in Europe and our history is as much a consequence of developments that have nothing to do with us is somewhat more humbling Oh yeah. It wasn’t until college that I learned the significance of the French and Indian War as it tied into the Seven Years War in Europe. All I got in high school was George Washington was a hero…Fort Dusquene…you can get extra credit for reading _Last of the Mohicans_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541.md?page=12)