# Bullshit history that turned out to be true **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541 "2021-07-02T21:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/330 "2022-08-04T21:00:43Z")
…And I should post a summary from the posted link. In Collier’s magazine, February, 1919, Franklin P. Adams gave a version said to be close to the more current version, but he ascribed the quip to a prominent sportswriter named Hugh E. Keough. The Quote Investigator article says that Damon Runyon also attributed the saying to Keogh. Sorry, but O Henry’s use of the saying is not mentioned at all in the Quote Investigator article. But there’s more. The earliest version is from 1833, _Blackwoods Edinburgh Magazine_: “Now we say that the race is—if not always—ninety-nine times in a hundred—to the swift, and the battle to the strong”. In short, cynicism has been around for awhile. Shocked, we are, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/331 "2022-08-04T21:38:30Z")
> [@Civil\_Guy](#): > > Whoah. If I may be so bold as to offer more information on the previous attribution, I just Googled it because I thought it was by Damon Runyon Thanks. I forget where I saw it, decades ago, where it was attributed to O Henry. I can see someone mixing up O Henry and Runyon, although Runyon seems the most likely culprit. Oh well, the essence of the quote is understandable no matter who thought it up. I suppose it falls in the category of famous sayings that aren’t, like… Napoleon: “Never ascribe to malice what is best explained by incompetence.” George W.: “The trouble with the French economy is they don’t even have a word for entrepreneur.” Sigmund Freud: “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” * * * A side note on Hemings - she was said to be not too capable for her job, accompanying Jeffeson’s daughter. > In a letter to Jefferson on June 27, 1787, Abigail [Adams] wrote: _“The Girl who is with [Polly] is quite a child, and Captain Ramsey is of opinion will be of so little Service that…”_ Except one wonders about this last bit she says about Captain Ramsay _“… he had better carry her back with him.”_ Ummm… the captain is concerned that Sally may not be up to her assigned task, so - “Abigal, how about you suggest that Thomas let me take the slave girl back to American on a weeks-long voyage accompanying me?” One wonders at the overwhelming generosity of these older men… ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/332 "2022-08-04T22:33:11Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > It was by 1820 that slavery became a major dispute - the status of Missouri became an issue, and the free vs. slave issue became important in American national politics. But that does not mean it mattered inside the northern states which by then had effectively ended slavery. […] > > I’m suggesting that for the northern states, it was one of many issues and not the foremost one, not “it did not matter”. Hmm, okay. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/333 "2022-08-04T22:37:04Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > We start the story with a 44-year-old widower and a lively 15yo in a foreign country - what do we think happened? Also, in case Jefferson was a lingering racist, Sally was 3/4 white and looked a lot like his late wife, according to reports. Not surprising, considering her father was also Jefferson’s late wife’s father. I know that we are in factual questions, and I do not have a cite, but I strongly suspect that Sally Henmings was quite beautiful, given her mix of features between white and black people. In our modern society, light skinned black women with straight hair are frequently lauded for their beauty. Some notable examples include actresses Rashida Jones and Halle Berry. > [@](#): > > “Sally was mighty near white…Sally was very handsome, long straight hair down her back.” > Formerly enslaved blacksmith Isaac (Granger) Jefferson (1847) > > “Light colored and decidedly good looking.” > Jefferson’s grandson Thomas Jefferson Randolph (ca. 1851) > **[Sally Hemings | Life of Sally Hemings](https://www.monticello.org/sallyhemings/)** > > An in-depth look at Sally Hemings, who was enslaved by Thomas Jefferson and bore several of his children, using research, videos, and oral histories, and the recollections of her son Madison Hemings to tell what is known -- and unknown -- about her... ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2022, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/334 "2022-08-04T22:57:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > France and Russia mobilized first and attacked Germany first > [@DrDeth](#): > > In the Great War, Mobilization meant war, and Russia and France attacked Germany first. This is the kind of utter nonsense one can fall prey to when being seduced by a single outlier historian whose narrative is appealing for whatever reason. Austria-Hungary opened WWI hostilities by attacking Serbia on July 28, 1914. Russia partially mobilized its military on the same day. While Germany and Russia both wound up going to full mobilization, it was _Germany_ that sent an ultimatum to Russia, and _Germany_ that attacked Belgium, widening the conflict and making it inevitable that other countries would be drawn in. Whatever various nations were hoping to get out of the war, Austria-Hungary and its ally, Germany, bear the onus for starting it. It’s part of the historical record.\* \*The historical record is based on far more than _The Guns of August_. Works by S.L.A. Marshall and Max Hastings are recommended to help clear away some of the fog for you. \*\*Saying that “mobilization meant war” is like claiming that America instigated war with Japan by instituting a peacetime draft. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/335 "2022-08-05T03:49:29Z")
In 1914 , yes that’s what it meant. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/336 "2022-08-05T12:31:07Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > Ummm… the captain is concerned that Sally may not be up to her assigned task, so - “Abigal, how about you suggest that Thomas let me take the slave girl back to American on a weeks-long voyage accompanying me?” One wonders at the overwhelming generosity of these older men… Hence Titus Kaphar’s jarring painting, “Behind the Myth of Benevolence”: [![](https://i0.wp.com/www.culturetype.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/exhpn155-1.jpg?ssl=1) ](https://i0.wp.com/www.culturetype.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/exhpn155-1.jpg?ssl=1) (In case’s that’s not clear, that’s Jefferson in the portrait falling away to reveal a Hemmingesque figure.) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/337 "2022-08-05T12:44:40Z")
Do you also believe that Ukraine’s appeal to join NATO in January, and Biden’s sending 3,000 NATO troops to Poland and Rumania in February was an act of war against Russia that justified its invasion of Ukraine? The idea that preparing to face aggression is morally equivalent to committing it, is the definition of bullshit history. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/338 "2022-08-05T13:12:30Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Whistler’s channels are all YouTube clickbait. > > Entertaining nuggets at best. > > Like a puddle. Wide but shallow. And yet… based on reality. I wouldn’t recommend them as definitive history but they are a good starting point/introduction. When I’ve got 10-20 minutes to kill I do enjoy them. Also, I admire the beard he’s grown over the covid years, he’s really rockin’ that look. > [@Mijin](#): > > I wouldn’t say that, I’ve definitely learned a lot from them. However I think that Simon Whistler is just the presenter, as far as I have seen all his videos have “Written By ” in the credits. Yes, Simon is the presenter. Watch his stuff about more technical/scientific stuff and it’s clear he’s not the authority, he the person delivering the message. I’m wonder when he’s going to post an outtake/blooper reel. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/339 "2022-08-05T14:07:18Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > We ought to see if they’ve caught any chupacabras, yetis, skinwalkers, etc. I know you were joking, but the big difference is that there are no fossils of yetis. ---
**Author:** ![Moonrise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonrise/32/14764_2.png) [@Moonrise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonrise)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/340 "2022-08-05T15:15:21Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > or the Polynesians over the last 2,000 years - “primitive” people travelled a lot farther and more accurately than we give them credit for. I’ve been fascinated by the [Austronesian expansion](https://historyguild.org/what-is-the-austronesian-expansion/) for some time. This article looks like a good place to start, although some claims seem outlandish (they may have reached _Europe_ ?). Moreover, as a linguist (amateur, alas), I find these languages particularly interesting. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/341 "2022-08-05T15:20:12Z")
This is not 1914. Its a different world. In 1914 armies were still horse drawn in the field but used trains for large scale movement of men and material. In 1870 the Prussians had used the rail network to mobalize ahead of the French, gaining what turned out to be the decisive advantage. In 1914 every staff officer in Europe knew that the one who mobilised faster would win. The war plans of every Army had extremely detailed procedures for mobilisation, with minutely scheduled timetables for the movement of every man and weapon. It was a complicated machine and it was basically all or nothing, a partial mobilisation wasn’t something that could be done easily. In 2022, if the Americans send 3000 men to Russian borders, the Russians can move troops quickly to deal with any threat. In 1914, if the Russians mobilise and the Germans didn’t, large part of the German frontier would be lightly defended and it would take weeks to get troops there, buy which time the Russians would be deep inside. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/342 "2022-08-05T15:43:59Z")
This still doesn’t answer the question of why you apparently think that preparing for the possibility of war is morally equivalent to launching it. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/343 "2022-08-05T17:01:27Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > (In case’s that’s not clear, that’s Jefferson in the portrait falling away to reveal a Hemmingesque figure.) Again - Hemings was 3/4 white with a noted strong resemblance to Jefferson’s late wife (her half-sister), and presumably her children would be 7/8 white. I would suggest maybe Meghan Markle-Windsor might be a better exemplar of her appearance? ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/344 "2022-08-05T17:09:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > In 1914 every staff officer in Europe knew that the one who mobilised faster would win. The war plans of every Army had extremely detailed procedures for mobilisation, with minutely scheduled timetables for the movement of every man and weapon. But the difference in time would be the time difference between start of mobilizations. If A mobilizes a day after B, then A will be at the front a day after B. And it’s not all-or-nothing. It took days, so A will only be behind by one of several days of adding reinforcements to the front. By the time B has enough people in place to attack, A will have a moderately decent defense force in place. This isn’t the sort of arrangement where hundreds of tons of supplies and tens of thousands of men can be delivered in a matter of a day or two, considering the communications and rail logistics on 1914. Unless it’s suggested that secret preparations to mobilize were happening earlier - but that’s the sort of mass country-wide action that’s difficult to hide from enemy spies. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/345 "2022-08-05T17:21:13Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > A racist bullshit history which turned out to be accidentally slightly accurate, turn of the last century it was believed by some “historians” that ancient Egyptian (and Greek, and Mesopotamian and Indus Valley) civilisation had been founded by an ancient “Nordic race” which had disappeared, something attributed to miscegenation. > This is not accepted by anyone reputable anymore, but it turns out some famous Kings and Queens were foreigners; like Ramses II. While some of the Egyptians were lighter skinned immigrants from the north, and some dynasties were of less than pure Egyptian ethnicity (looking at the Ptolemies) they also likewise had foreigners from the south who were darker than the average Egyptian, including one dynasty of Pharaohs with Nubian ancestry. So while the “foreigners move in and take over” part had some basis in history the racist “they had to be White/European foreigners” is discredited. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/346 "2022-08-05T17:49:59Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > And yet… based on reality. I wouldn’t recommend them as definitive history but they are a good starting point/introduction. > > When I’ve got 10-20 minutes to kill I do enjoy them. > > Also, I admire the beard he’s grown over the covid years, he’s really rockin’ that look. Another vote for him here, anyone that has contempt for pseudoscience and offers funny lessons on how to debunk someone like Nostradamus, deserves attention from a group like ours. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/WjmMbsjO5bQ/maxresdefault.jpg "Michel de Nostradame: AKA Nostradamus") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjmMbsjO5bQ) This one looks like Simon is gullible by eating all the trash from Nostry, but at the end he shows how gullible the ones following the Nostradamus “prophecies” really are. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/347 "2022-08-05T18:54:31Z")
> [@Moonrise](#): > > I’ve been fascinated by the [Austronesian expansion](https://historyguild.org/what-is-the-austronesian-expansion/) for some time. Wow, thanks for that link (I guess 😊), that was a rabbit hole I wasn’t expecting! ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/348 "2022-08-05T19:22:27Z")
> **[A photo of a uniquely American racist act dominates the news, but my photo is...](https://www.salon.com/2019/02/13/a-photo-of-a-uniquely-american-racist-act-dominates-the-news-but-my-photo-is-an-act-of-equality/)** > > Cousins: One is the great grandson of a slave owner & the other the great grandson of that slave owner & a slave ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2022, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/349 "2022-08-05T23:09:45Z")
Fascinating. Thank you for posting that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541.md?page=18)