# Bullshit history that turned out to be true **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541 "2021-07-02T21:30:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/390 "2022-08-09T00:24:21Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > That’s why you’re a good writer. An endless pile of facts, no matter how individually interesting, can really weigh a book down. Yeah, well, it’s a constant struggle. After all, those comments about it being to wordy were about my latest work. I just finished the second draft tonight. Now I get to read it all through again. Whee! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/391 "2022-08-09T00:37:49Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > This is even more flagrantly nonsensical than your previous insistence that the Allies and Central Powers were equally guilty of starting WWI. > > It’s useless to continue to debate the point with someone whose views are so divorced from historical reality. After finding out that the French falsified documents to show the Germans attacked and mobilized first, due to finding Russian documents that explicitly say the reverse, showing you several modern historians that agree, and showing you cites that make that very very clear- your views are the ones divorced from historical reality. Cling all you want to Tuchman. Tuchman based her timeline on lies spread by the French to get money. They out and out lied just to get financial reparations- which they did not share with the Belgians, I might add. I have cites. I have stated something like three or four times here that the historians and I agree on the fact the Germany was both wrong and stupid for invading Belgium. BTW, you cite does not show any direct aid to Belgium from France, just more loans. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Not scandalous perhaps, but by the standards of the day slightly risqué, as even the comic acknowledged: Oh sure, that short “flapper” skirt (pr is that a “skort”? )was indeed a little scandalous in some parts of the USA. WW was a little sexy no doubt, but Phantom Lady was pure sex. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/392 "2022-08-09T11:34:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Oh sure, that short “flapper” skirt (pr is that a “skort”? )was indeed a little scandalous in some parts of the USA. WW was a little sexy no doubt, but Phantom Lady was pure sex. Don’t judge Phantom Lady by that one cover (as most people do – it’s the one reproduced in Wertham’s _Seduction of the Innocent_). In much of her history PL was much more completely covered up. Not exactly demure, but wearing about as much as Wonder Woman was. > **[Phantom Lady Covers](https://www.coverbrowser.com/covers/phantom-lady)** > > A cover gallery for the comic book Phantom Lady Interesting bit – one of PL’s artists was Frank Borth, who went on to be one of the premier artists for the Catholic comic book _Treasure Chest of Fun and Fact,_ where he drew mostly bucolic “serial” adventures, and very few sexily-dressed crime fighting women. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/393 "2022-08-09T15:51:33Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Don’t judge Phantom Lady by that one cover (as most people do – it’s the one reproduced in Wertham’s _Seduction of the Innocent_). In much of her history PL was much more completely covered up. Not exactly demure, but wearing about as much as Wonder Woman was. Looks like the artists were progressively seeing how far they could take it; sort of like how Power Girl originally met the standard of “Females shall be drawn realistically without exaggeration of any physical qualities.” 😄 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/394 "2022-08-09T22:28:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Looks like the artists were progressively seeing how far they could take it; sort of like how Power Girl originally met the standard of “Females shall be drawn realistically without exaggeration of any physical qualities.” I wouldn’t be surprised. I heard recently (On “Wait, Wait Don’t Tell Me”, I think) that female bust sizes in comic books have increased significantly in the last twenty years. Another example of the “Character being drawn sexier” is Red Sonja i n the Conan comics. When Barry Smith first drew her she was of modest proportions, wore pirate boots and red pants and a full mail shirt that completely covered her like a T-shirt with long sleeves. > **[RED SONJA’s Marvel Debut Gets EPIC COLLECTION Treatment](https://13thdimension.com/red-sonjas-marvel-debut-gets-epic-collection-treatment/)** > > Roy Thomas and Barry Windsor-Smith’s Bronze Age Conan gets another affordable paperback… > **[The Song of Red Sonja](https://longboxgraveyard.com/2014/11/05/the-song-of-red-sonja-2/)** > > The She-Devil With A Sword one-ups Conan in this great single-issue fantasy adventure! Esteban Maroto redesigned her costume to be the :“Mail Bikini” style that looked as if it was made out of linked silver dollars. Frank Thorne eagerly adopted the style, and gave her those bee-stung lips that looked as if perpetually covered in lip gloss and with eye liner. She also got considerably bustier. > **[Stranger in a Strange land](https://www.tumblr.com/the-gershomite/659237228271304704/red-sonja-by-esteban-maroto)** > > Red Sonja by Esteban Maroto [https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1368821](https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1368821) > **[13 COVERS: A FRANK THORNE Tribute](https://13thdimension.com/13-covers-a-frank-thorne-tribute/)** > > The artist best known for Marvel’s Red Sonja has died at the age of 90… ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2022, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/395 "2022-08-09T22:30:27Z")
That looks comfortable as well as providing effective protection. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/396 "2022-08-10T06:31:00Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Esteban Maroto redesigned her costume to be the :“Mail Bikini” style that looked as if it was made out of linked silver dollars To be fair, that’s still more armor than Conan got. Why is female skin more provocative than male skin? If all of the male characters were wearing full hauberks, I could understand why a mail bikini would be problematic. But Conan/Sonja comics celebrated shirtlessness in general, not just female shirtlessness. If instead of being set in the Hyborian Age, the comics were set on a 1960s California beach, would anyone be criticizing the presence of a few bellybuttons? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2022, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/397 "2022-08-10T16:10:46Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Esteban Maroto redesigned her costume to be the :“Mail Bikini” style that looked as if it was made out of linked silver dollars. Complete tangent, but back when Canada first introduced the [loonie coin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loonie), I thought that they’d make for some great post-apocalyptic body armor. Picture some kind of [scale mail](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_armour) consisting of hundreds of loonies riveted to a leather or cloth jacket. I mean, the metal is already there, and formed into a convenient size… ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/398 "2022-08-11T00:11:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Why is female skin more provocative than male skin? Probably a hijack, but: Heh, the flipside of that is that female skin is more provocative until the guy takes off their undies. Showing a penis is pretty much verboten. Several of my girlfriends and my wife decided to use me as the nude model for their work. The reactions of gallery owners when you have a wang visible, even a flaccid one, would make you think that you had just asked them to show your homemade porn in their gallery. Nude women? Sure, got them all over the place. Sausage people need not apply. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/399 "2022-08-11T11:12:58Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Probably a hijack, but: Heh, the flipside of that is that female skin is more provocative until the guy takes off their undies. Showing a penis is pretty much verboten. Several of my girlfriends and my wife decided to use me as the nude model for their work. The reactions of gallery owners when you have a wang visible, even a flaccid one, would make you think that you had just asked them to show your homemade porn in their gallery. Nude women? Sure, got them all over the place. Sausage people need not apply. Oh, absolutely - below the belt, all bets are off. I just found it interesting how a woman in scale bikini is “sexualized”, “objectified” and “wildly impractical”, whilst a man in a fur diaper somehow makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2022, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/400 "2022-08-11T11:32:18Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Red Sonja i n the Conan comics. When Barry Smith first drew her she was of modest proportions, wore pirate boots and red pants and a full mail shirt that completely covered her like a T-shirt with long sleeves. If you like trivia, Barry Windsor-Smith lived in Forest Gate, London, and probably drew that issue in his parent’s front room. Arnold Swarzenegger also lived in Forest Gate, and so did I. Admittedly, not all at the same time, but when he was a kid, Windsor-Smith might have seen Ahnold at the shops. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/401 "2022-08-14T16:20:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Oh, absolutely - below the belt, all bets are off. I just found it interesting how a woman in scale bikini is “sexualized”, “objectified” and “wildly impractical”, whilst a man in a fur diaper somehow makes perfect sense. Quite often it comes down to how the figures are posed. Scantily clad female characters often appear as passive objects of desire, whereas characters like Conan are most often depicted in poses that demonstrate power. Conan is a badass, he’s not just there for you to look at. I haven’t read a Ren Sonja comic in years, so I can’t really comment too much on the art depicting her. Last year I did read the first issue of The Savage Sword of Conan from the 1970s that featured Sonja, but I don’t think she came off looking too shabby in that one. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/402 "2022-08-14T18:55:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To be fair, that’s still more armor than Conan got. Depends. In several of Howard’s stories Conan is described as wearing a shirt of oiled mail links. Other times he’s got armor. In his first paperback cover appearance, Conan looks like a Roman soldier: [![](https://isfdb.org/wiki/images/0/0e/TSORCTC1953.jpg) ](https://isfdb.org/wiki/images/0/0e/TSORCTC1953.jpg) You can argue that it was Frank Frazetta who gave us the image of Conan dressed in a fur loincloth, but that’s not strictly true, either. Look at his cover for Conan the Warrior: [![](https://isfdb.org/wiki/images/c/ca/CNNTHWRRR631967.jpg) ](https://isfdb.org/wiki/images/c/ca/CNNTHWRRR631967.jpg) The original Marvel Conan Comics frequently had his more fully dressed than the fur bathing suit and boots. But I do have to admit, he’s generally pretty undressed on the covers. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/403 "2022-08-14T20:27:59Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Depends. In several of Howard’s stories Conan is described as wearing a shirt of oiled mail links. Other times he’s got armor. That’s true - I’ve read the REH stories, and I remember him once chiding a young warrior for not wearing armor to battle. I don’t remember any women in mail bikinis in the stories, either. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/404 "2022-08-14T20:46:16Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t remember any women in mail bikinis in the stories, either. Here’s the [story from which she sprang](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0608101h.html), where she is a minor supporting player during the first siege of Vienna. I once had a Red Sonja novel (not great) where the creator in the forward went into why they chose to transpose the Red Sonya character to the Conan-verse with a slight name change. They had been looking through the Conan stories for a female character to use, but even the couple of tough ones had eventually kinda subordinated themselves to Conan. They preferred the more independent-seeming badass from Howard’s historical fiction. ETA: the original description - It was a woman, dressed as von Kalmbach had not seen even the dandies of France dressed. She was tall, splendidly shaped, but lithe. From under a steel cap escaped rebellious tresses that rippled red gold in the sun over her compact shoulders. High boots of Cordovan leather came to her mid-thighs, which were cased in baggy breeches. She wore a shirt of fine Turkish mesh-mail tucked into her breeches. Her supple waist was confined by a flowing sash of green silk, into which were thrust a brace of pistols and a dagger, and from which depended a long Hungarian saber. Over all was carelessly thrown a scarlet cloak. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/405 "2022-08-14T21:55:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Oh, absolutely - below the belt, all bets are off. I just found it interesting how a woman in scale bikini is “sexualized”, “objectified” and “wildly impractical”, whilst a man in a fur diaper somehow makes perfect sense. There’s a few issues around chain mail bikinis that don’t really apply to fur diapers. The first one is containment. Say what you want about Conan’s briefs, they’re generally presented as substantial enough that he doesn’t have to worry about his little barbarian flopping out in the middle of a fight. Red Sonja’s chain mail bikini doesn’t offer that sort of assurance. In a lot of her depictions, it’s hard to figure out how she could swing her sword without her tits constantly popping out. Also, even if she’s got the bikini glued on, having those massive things swinging around all the time would be murder on her lower back. She should have those things strapped down. Also, just the fact that it’s a _chainmail_ bikini invites some mockery. Chain mail is expensive, heavy, and uncomfortable. If it’s not actually offering you any protection, why bother with it? **Odesio** already touched on how they’re posed, but for comparison: [How Conan sits on a throne](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/63/ed/b3/63edb36375fedca32a66eda9cf1e31a7.jpg), v. [how Sonja sits on a throne](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Qk4AAOSwVqFg5KOe/s-l500.jpg). For a female counterpart to Conan that isn’t just adolescent wank material, you’d probably want something like [this](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e6/4a/57/e64a5734c1ea126e88a60e1a6858432d.png). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/406 "2022-08-14T23:13:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > **Odesio** already touched on how they’re posed, but for comparison: [How Conan sits on a throne](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/63/ed/b3/63edb36375fedca32a66eda9cf1e31a7.jpg), v. [how Sonja sits on a throne](https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Qk4AAOSwVqFg5KOe/s-l500.jpg). Both images strike me as highly sexualised. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/407 "2022-08-14T23:21:42Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Both images strike me as highly sexualised. That’s a remarkable reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/408 "2022-08-14T23:28:30Z")
The focus of both images is what’s between their legs. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2022, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bullshit-history-that-turned-out-to-be-true/945541/409 "2022-08-14T23:34:51Z")
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